In this episode, Charlie meets John Towers, head at Barrowhills Primary School in Surrey, and twice qualified coach. John has been an advocate for coaching in schools for many years and has managed many coaching related initiatives.
Together they talk about the opportunities for coaching within schools, for the benefit of pupils, teachers and leaders
Main Topics Discussed in the Episode:
In this conversation, John shares his enthusiasm for coaching, his background as a coaching style of leader, and the pathway that has led him to his position
We also talk about his career, and the point at which coaching started to become important to him. And how coaching is changing within the education sector, and how many more heads are embracing a coaching approach to leadership.
Each story shared brings real-life insights that coaches at all levels can relate to and learn from.
Useful Links From This Episode:
Transcript:
Charlie Warshawski (00:01.58)
Well, hello there fellow coaches. I hope that you’re very well and I hope that whatever time of the day, whatever time of the week you’re listening to this, all is good in your life and in the coaching world. Really pleased to have as part of this series, all about coaching in education, a very experienced head teacher and coach and colleague, friend of mine, John Towers. Hello there, John. How nice of you to join us. How are you doing?
JT (00:27.98)
Charlie. I’m very well and a delight to talk to you again and a pleasure to be on your podcast. Thanks for having me.
Charlie Warshawski (00:36.962)
Thank you. Thank you, John. So John is like me. He lives in the south of London in Surrey and John has come to coaching through the world of school leadership. John is the, he’s the head of a school in Surrey, Barrow Hills School. And this is his third headship. He’s been the head previously of one other independent school and a state school as well. But he’s also worked as a school improvement advisor. I think
Kensington and Chelsea, is that right? That local authority. And has also run an educational charity called Reach to Cheech in India. So he’s got a very, very rich and a very eclectic background. We will have listeners here who are both inside education and outside of education, but everyone will be a coach. I’m sure that they’re going to enjoy hearing about your story. So without wanting to sound like this is your life, John, the early years.
Tell us a bit about how did you get into education in first place? What took you to becoming a teacher and then a school?
JT (01:42.758)
Yeah, early years education was interesting and I think it was was formative some of my experience in leading me to become a teacher. I had an exciting childhood and a certain point in that childhood I ended up in a really tough, what was known at the time perhaps unkindly as a sink school in South Manchester.
And it was pretty mean streets. fortunately, the head teacher there, his name was John as well, John Smith, he was a lovely guy. I think he kind of spotted me. We’d had a really big fight with the school up the road as one tended to do in the 1980s, because it was a time beyond.
the comprehension of many young people today. So there was this enormous inter-school fight. And my response was to write a poem for my English homework about it.
And I was sent to the head and I thought, crikey, I’ve overstepped the line here. I’m into it. And Mr. Smith said, know, Towers did you write this letter? And I said, yeah, I’m sorry, sir, if I’ve overstepped the mark.He went, tell me the truth, did you really write this? I said, yes, I did. I’m sorry, sir, if I offended anyone. And he said, no, it’s bloody brilliant. So anyway, one thing led to another. He had me off the playground, from fighting and doing some extra lessons and ended up getting me a scholarship to a really strong academic school. And I kind of got to university and got to the point where I think I’ve got to go back and thank this guy. The penny takes a while to drop sometimes. And I was the first person in my family to sort of have that sort of level of education really. So when I got back to that bit of Manchester, I found that not only had he retired, but he’d sadly passed away, which was my fault really for not thanking him earlier. But what that ignited in me was, yeah, I need to teach. I can do the same for people.
JT (04:03.18)
as was done to me, that’s going to be transformational. So that set me on my way. So it’s a nice story, but it’s a true one. It was the intervention, I think, probably more than a single human being. There’d been teachers around me, my English teachers, my family, my friends, they inspired me. But it did have quite a profound impact, that individual helping me, giving me a little
Charlie Warshawski (04:24.632)
That’s a wonderful story. And I presume you’re not just calling him John Smith for anonymity reasons. was actually his name. Goodness me. And with the benefit of hindsight, and now you have been ahead for years, do you reckon that you weren’t the only person he put on their way onto a better path?
JT (04:46.958)
I’m sure. I mean, at the time the school was dealt with, know, it was a, although it was not academically selective in any way, I think some of the skills it gave people and technical skills were great. So I’ve got no doubt. And it had, you know, that ethos, that caring ethos that it’s hard, which is always stuck with me. So yeah, I went on from there and in my early part of my career, I’m a primary school teacher.
So I first of all trained and landed in year one, year two. And then before I know it, I was doing key stage two and a bit of key stage three. But I started teaching quite young children, which was a joy and in hindsight, one of the most happy parts of my career.
Charlie Warshawski (05:34.764)
Yes. And I mean, and it’s interesting, isn’t it? Because, you know, as you well know, the primary sector, it’s very female centric and you often, I mean, I was at school yesterday, I was the only man in the room, you know, and there was everyone else’s woman, which is very often like that. So what was it like being in the minority being, you know, one of only a few blokes teaching in Key Stage 1?
JT (05:57.944)
Yeah, it was it was a double edged sword really. I realized even on teacher training, actually, did that nottingham. I walked in to day one. And it was a really big, big room full of post graduates. I was the only bloke in there. I thought, you know, as a 22 year old young man might great. And then I thought, hang on a minute.
there might be some flip side to this. I’m never going to be able to get away with being late or anything which was the case. no, mean mostly it’s been a delight actually. think having been surrounded by some really strong female role models early in my career was formative. I worked with a brilliant female head and some really good senior colleagues.
JT (06:57.444)
And yeah, quite often in back in the 90s. And actually through to me being a deputy head. I was I was often some points the only man in the school certainly there’d be two or three of us. But I always saw a real benefit of being surrounded by my colleagues and page and you take a bit of ribbing. You know, I once I was felt persecuted by when I
taught on the Grenfell Estate. We were in a primary school, it was a great one. I won’t say the name of it, but I was the only man on the team for a while. And of course I had my own toilets and the female staff used to pinch my toilet which used to really annoy me. It’s my only sacred space left. I remember I’d gone away, I’d got…
I’d gone away on school trips taking kids back and when I came back they’d ganged up. They’d painted my blessed toilet with kind of floral, powerful, wild. So that was the basis of their aggressive takeover of my terrain. So it was always kind of, know, very happy part of their teaching.
Charlie Warshawski (08:19.372)
Yes. Sounds very tongue in cheek. I had visions of toilet seats being glued down so you could never flip the lid ever, ever again. Goodness. And so, so there’s a moment that when you go through your early teaching career and work your way up the ladder and you find yourself to be ahead on this is a massively leading question. Did you, but did you find yourself on the day that you appointed ahead or your first day thinking about John Smith?
JT (08:47.524)
Yeah, I did. probably more thought he said the classic imposter syndrome and almost on my what have I done? I was I was I was in my 30s. And I worked my way up through in a London local and being a deputy head and it was the school I was a debt chap was a real turnaround school. So I’m not very strong experience there. And there was a school up the road that was at the time, I think
pretty much the worst performing primary school in the country, but any kind of measure she wanted to take. And I don’t know whether it was their faith in me or whether I was just naive. So, yeah, I’ll take the job. And I was very much encouraged by the local authority to take it on. So I did think absolutely morally about why I was there and the mission. But I think that was in the context of almost, gosh, am I up for it? Can I do this?
there was a tremendous weight of responsibility knowing that I was on one of the worst performing schools in the country. And the expectation from everyone was that, you know, with the team, I was going to be able to turn it around pretty quickly. So, so a mixture of, looking back, but also a fair bit of fear and apprehension.
Charlie Warshawski (10:10.168)
I think anyone who doesn’t work in education could imagine this, right? It it does sound terrifying, doesn’t it? The idea, the pressure and the responsibility and how so many people are, you know, everyone knows how to run a school, know, don’t they? Parents and politicians and the bloke on the bus, you know, everyone knows, right? And everyone has, how do you manage that? How do you manage drawing all these disparate views that come your way and then work out what’s the right?
ultimate decision.
JT (10:42.392)
I think when you were starting, I suppose there’s a bit you carry on inside you about what you think is sacred and important. And then it’s kind of getting a sense of the terrain pretty quickly. So I remember for that example, starting that first headship on day one, and you go into your new office and it’s being bequeathed to you by someone else.
School had gone through quite a few head teachers unsurprisingly in a short amount of time. but under under the desk I was sort of, you know, arranging things early in the morning and there was this big sort of upside down doorbell under the desk. I was like rare. What is this? Like this red button. Of course I pressed it like you do when you see that button. Suddenly everyone runs in, all the admin team run in. They’re like,
quit, get into the safe room. I was like, what on earth are you talking about? And the admin, this wonderful lady, she said, you go into the stock cupboard there, that’s the safe room. When things get, that’s where the head runs in there. We probably call the cops or something. Everything calms down. And I said, you know, I’m sorry to hear that. So I said, let’s take this out because, you know, immediately,
sort of reading the room and listening to her. And this was real, you know, I wasn’t being well-worn up. said, probably what you need is a head that doesn’t run into the stock cupboard, doesn’t panic and probably walks down to the front door with you and handles the matter calmly. So it was probably from that first day, my first win of listening to what someone was telling me and then perhaps understanding what lies beneath that.
JT (12:36.622)
could tell by a face and a body language, was something that happened many times, but something that really disappointed them and upset them. kind of bringing through both of those things, you know, listening to the person, but taking some defined positive action.
Charlie Warshawski (12:52.502)
Well, I can’t imagine what the feeling must have been when you realize that there’s a panic button under your desk. It’s like you imagine the grills and the shutters dropping down. It reminds me when I was a very young man, I worked in hotels and there was this apocryphal story of we had one of those terrifying head chefs, know, one big, very, very terrifying. the chap who is his line manager, the food and beverage manager used to climb out the window anytime he heard him coming down the corridor, which seemed eminently sensible, to be honest, at the time.
Charlie Warshawski (13:22.38)
But you have to set an example, clearly you did. So you’re getting a load of experience, right? A load of experience running this challenging, challenging state school. And then you had some years there, but then you went to school improvement advice, and then obviously you went to run a charity for some time. So what were those experiences like?
JT (13:44.468)
I mean, was very fortunate. You know, sometimes you’re in the right place and around the right people and things get offered. And with the first one, with the school improvement advisor, the school, Bevington, done very well. So, you know, the team came together, we made a plan, we executed it. And before you knew it, we were sailing forwards with the sense of success, first of all, very much in the community.
with how people felt and how the children felt and behaved. And then externally, know, Halstead giving us garlands, the Secretary of State for Education visiting the newspaper. So it all got fantastic. So great, great, great. Lots of hard work. Blood, and tears, quite literally. And at the end of it, the local authority, was quite long sighted, I thought at the time, wanted to start bringing some jobbing head teachers into the school improvement team to try and change the way it was perceived. was very much school improvement. You’d be a head or you’d be a senior administrator. Then you’d go into school improvement and you’d do that full time. I think what they felt is if they could get a jobbing head part-time on the team, that would add a different angle, which is what I did. So it was really good. I got to work with my colleague heads, but I also got to expand my sense of how
a large local authority runs by working with some, you know, really good advisors, school improvement experts. And I suppose in a way that gave some of my first ins onto mentoring, which we’ll probably talk about later in coaching and performance management colleagues, particularly head teachers. So I think a nice experience there was as a colleague as a head being asked to go and help
with the performance management of some of my colleagues and that took lot of this diplomacy, but it went down very well with those colleagues because it felt like there was a peer coming to help them and to guide them, not just this kind of voice from above from the local authority or, you know, what came after Academy chains and so on. So that was a really broadening thing. And then the India thing was, it was literally a chance connection. So…
JT (16:09.34)
one of my senior members of staff at Beddington, Ruth, was coordinating the early years and got engaged to this chap called Sanjeev Gandhi. And Sanjeev had worked at the BBC at Yahoo. He’d worked as a consultant. And he had decided to rob and buy some big house and Porsche and everything.
to actually invest in a startup called Reach to Teach. So he just established a platform in Gujarat trying to help very rural communities, more often than not, it was Adivasi tribals in these communities who were the indigenous peoples of that area of India and create a basic school structure for them.
because there was pretty much nothing there. There was about 20,000 kids out to school. So he’d started that. I met him socially. He had a couple of drinks. He was in startup phase and he persuaded me to go out one summer just to have a look at it in its proto stage. I loved it. And before I knew it, he taught me into giving up being a teacher and school improvement advisor.
and packing my bags and then for the next four years I bounced between our London office and our India office and we built with partners over in Gujarat just over a hundred pop-up schools which was a pretty remarkable experience and a teacher training function to go alongside that so that was that was that was a remarkable visceraand richer, exhausting experience, but it was absolutely brilliant. We got that to scale and then it was so intense. had to kind of, we were scaling. I would have had to completely relocate to India at the time and I wasn’t quite ready for that. I did miss being a head teacher. So that’s what I came back to that, yeah.
Charlie Warshawski (18:27.813)
But John, mean, if you went under the bus tomorrow, would this be, do think, the proudest moment, the first thing that will get mentioned at your eulogy, the idea that you and Sandy have got 100 plus schools going out and trained teachers? Is this like a really high point and moment of pride for you?
JT (18:49.272)
I think so. It’s difficult, you know, because so many lovely things happen when you’re in education. I think, yeah, that would have been a pinnacle of doing something with a really fantastic team, a really good local team we built up. But that would have been a pinnacle of doing something totally transformational. I think the other thing was that first state school, Bevington.
That was such a massive turnaround. I can’t also help looking back on that in a different way. I’m thinking that that was up there with having a turnaround in a very different way in a different context, but actually quite similar in some ways.
Charlie Warshawski (19:34.84)
Well, it does, you know, I just got a bit hooked, didn’t I? I think by the numbers, but there’s that wonderful expression, isn’t it? Like one child at a time. And this is what you do, isn’t it? You might have these big events, but actually it is each individual child, the same that, you know, John Smith saw a young John Towers with his poem to turn one child around at a time. This is wonderful, John. And I know every time I have a chat with a guest who is a coach,
It takes me longer and longer and longer to get to the actual coaching bit because the back story is so wonderful and so rich. listeners, we are going to get to the coaching bit now for a little bit. You came back to Headship. You came back from Indie. You came back to Headship. And then coaching started to appear in your arena. You mentioned that you turned up as a bit of a listener when you were doing performance management with your head. So what was your initial turn onto coaching for you?
JT (20:27.748)
Well, think the certainly there was a hint of answer that. So in that job, particularly when I was working as a school improvement advisor, I ended up doing quite a lot of mentoring and then almost formally with the local authority, there was a scheme where established heads would help rookie heads, which was great. And also when I got back to doing study in my kind of late 20s, early 30s and did a masters.
one of my units there was in coaching, sorry, mentoring within education. So I got a of interest there. And then really coming back into Headship on the other side of India, it was by being coached initially that was a trigger. My chair of governors in that school was a, and is a very, very wise man, Dr. Inder Dhingra.
When I started, obviously assessed my skills as a good chair of governors would. And he’s recognizing that I’m moving from quite a different landscape with the skill set he wants, but probably might need a little bit of help. it was he that suggested, why don’t you do a bit of coaching? And he had a few things. So, you know, in our initial conversations in my first few months, a few things had emerged. So moving into independence sector.
in hindsight, perhaps some of my edges were quite sharp. Visibly stakeholder management, if you think of some of the mean streets I’ve come from, it was very much, know, school effectiveness. Let’s get something that works and let’s do this. And to be fair, I probably hadn’t attended so much to stakeholder relationships. Parents, for example.
as key stakeholders, particularly in independent sector or likewise aspects such as marketing and the wider commercial sense of running a school, which is a charity, but nevertheless has to be competitive and has to run as a business. So there was certainly a lot of gaps there, but I think Inder in his wisdom, rather than just sort of telling me, trying to tell me what to do. Every week when we had a meeting, I think struck gold. said, let’s get you some coaching because he recognized if I can ask myself
JT (22:50.34)
questions and get reflective, I’d probably take it much better. So that’s what I did and actually, you know, hats off meeting you, Charlie, back then, which was probably 12 years ago.
Charlie Warshawski (23:03.96)
Yeah, was, was, yeah, because Inder, I met Inder and then he introduced me to you and it was about 2014, yes.
JT (23:10.264)
Yeah, yeah. So it’s a good decade ago. So having that piece of coaching myself for the first time, I think that had quite a big impact on me. I’m flattering you now, Charlie, but it took a bit of time, which is good. So I remember having a few sessions with you and initially feeling a bit resistant to it, you know, because I had been in years prior to that, doing my gig in India.
where really the founders, Anjeev and the board, I was directing education and doing the thing. If I was doing my job well, getting the metrics we wanted and the growth, they just let me get on with it. It’s great. And then suddenly, I’m in a very different sense with someone asking some really good questions. So I think I was probably a little bit resistant at first. I know, what does this chair, I know how to run schools, you know. What does this Charlie Wachowski know about anything? So I kind of went along with it, but in the back of my mind, I remember thinking, okay, okay, I’m going to be performative. I need to go along with this, but am I going to really learn anything? But then very quickly I did. So I surprised myself because I think what happened with that first coaching is I came away from some sessions and it was almost a delayed impact in gratification.
I’d have a conversation that I’d cycle back to. And then it would take me a few weeks with some things, even a few months to think that conversation or that rabbit hole or that question. That’s really important. I don’t really want to do something about this. And I did. So I think that then shifted me into thinking about it. And once that school was in a good place, because when I took it on, it wasn’t in a good place, which is part of the attraction of taking it on. I love school development.
So once that school was in a good place and I’d applied some of that coaching to myself, that’s when I started thinking, okay, well maybe I could extend my mentoring to coaching. And then it was probably, probably about six years ago, I think probably 2015, no, perhaps later than that. I can’t remember. It feels like about six years ago. I think the pandemic bent all of my timeline, gave me out of shape.
about six or seven years ago, coming back to you, Charlie, and doing some formal ILM coach training. I wish at the time was face to face with a group of quite really interesting colleagues, all from different walks of life, different professions. And I really enjoyed that training. And that triggered me to go on and on and to do a little bit of work.
JT (26:02.212)
for all sorts of people. for the local authority that my independent school was in for Sutton, did a bit of work with them. I did a bit of work in the last few years with the Royal Society of the Arts, where I’m a trustee. Done a little bit of work with IAPS recently. So it’s been a really rich piece on the side. And then likewise, and we might get to talking about this, I think it’s just probably, hopefully in a good way.
changed the sort of head teacher I am and the sort of leader I am. think it’s changed my orientation a bit from when I first started in my first headship, being like a hammer, know, school effectiveness, performance orientation, pace setting, boom, boom, boom, into I think what I am now, which is probably a more collaborative and reflective and…
happy to take perhaps a slower route to success and a steadier one and a happier one than in my early years where I kind of think we really went at it.
Charlie Warshawski (27:09.04)
Well, I wonder if it is the coaching or whether it is the discrete pot plants that you have in your office to create a calm type of environment. So we will definitely pick up in a moment about you learning to be a coach and taking that on. for listeners, there’s a couple of really interesting points, I think, is that you came to coaching not as a green, terrified head, but as a head with a few hairs on your chest, right? With a tough headship, school improvement advice.
Charlie Warshawski (27:38.472)
and this India job that you’ve done. So you weren’t, you were wise to knowing what to do. You were perfectly fine at doing the job and yet you got something out of it. I think the idea that you say you were resistant, I think you were probably the most, very British if you were resistant, because I didn’t notice it, right? You might have tutted when I left the room or something. But I didn’t come home and say to my wife, course, that was our day. So I don’t remember that. And the other thing that I think is really interesting is it wasn’t like some,
marathon 20 session long, you know, every month for two years, was it? You we had relatively few sessions and because you’re local, we had a couple of sessions walking our dogs and, you know, in that informal way when we couldn’t take notes and some on the flip charts and so on. So, so, so the idea that actually, I think it’s a really important point for coaches and for school leaders to think about is that this is not just for the naive green.
petrified head teacher or deputy head or whatever. Very, very experienced. You can get loads out of their coaching.
JT (28:43.068)
Yeah, and especially I think when you when you you know a lot of colleagues in education that have done leadership work you’ve done they’ve done loads you know perhaps perhaps a master’s degree or a post-grad of some sort or a signification in x y and z so a lot of people have done and I think the difference with the coaching has felt it’s felt enormously practical.
I’m not saying doing a masters or anything isn’t because often you’re doing action research but I think in dripping into your day-to-day being and how you are, I think is probably one of the most impactful professional development I’ve ever done for sure.
Charlie Warshawski (29:26.392)
Yes. Do you know, and often, you know, it’s that, it’s that sort of tangential learning, you know, often people in, leaders in coach training will say, do you know what, I knew I had a, I knew I had a difficult conversation coming up with a parent or a colleague or whoever. And I just decided to like put my listing hat on. And so I wasn’t coaching them, but I was just, I took a listing stance, whereas,
six months ago I would have taken a talking stance, right? I’ve taken a, you know, brought my PA in for notes or whatever and you realize people get confident in their listing and that reshapes it all. Yeah, absolutely.
JT (29:59.638)
Absolutely, most definitely. I think on that, interestingly, think if I was observing myself over the years, pre and post coaching training, the way I would handle, let’s say a difficult meeting with a colleague, let’s say it’s an issue that could potentially end up with disciplinary capability, ramifications, or with a stakeholder like a parent who’s barreling towards a complaint.
JT (30:25.888)
I think I’m now, although I’d be prepared similarly as I would be in the past, I think I’m a lot more agile on listening and confident to listen in the moment and be in the moment with the person and then try and trim the sail on the basis of what they’re saying. Whereas I think pre-coaching, I think I would have been more liable to
talk at someone or have a solution in mind and by hook or by crook get there in the music which isn’t great if you’re on the sharp end.
Charlie Warshawski (31:05.708)
Yeah, but it’s a sort of business as usual of many, many leaders and teachers and so on. So I’m mindful we’re well into the detail now and this is wonderful. We’ve sort of taken that transition from you as a leader who has received coaching to now one who wants to be a coach. So we’re just going to stop for a moment and let our listener just reflect a little bit about that moment of transition. know, the moment lots of people come to learn to be coaches when they’ve been coached.
So what about you all? When did you transition? When did you think, coaching was for me? Was it when you’d been coached or when you’d heard about coaching or when you’d observed some coaching? Think about how similar or how different your story is to the one that John’s telling us. And when we come back, we’re going to talk more to John about him as an experienced and qualified coach. So see you in a moment.
Charlie Warshawski (32:01.688)
So welcome back. And John, you’re starting to talk about you as a leader and letting the coaching skills drip into your everyday leadership. And we’ll carry on with that in a moment, but I’d really like you to share a bit about, you you are double qualified. You did this first coach training program with a group of people from other industries, as you said, but then you did a second, a more advanced coach training program last year, 2023, with fellow head teachers
JT (32:40.612)
was very different from the first in, I suppose, good ways, also limiting ways, to be honest, because the good ways is you’re working with heads, you generally have an amenclature and an ethos. And it’s normally shared between the group. And it won’t be entirely lined up, but you’ve got a lot of bases that you’re going to agree on.
JT (33:09.508)
you know, in child centered being, being working in a collaborative way, you know, heart on sleeves, emotion, all of those things. And then there’s that those levels of professional interest in terms of the things that you want to get into with coaching, which can be quite specific and industry orientated. And that can be, that was very powerful. Likewise, the flip side, working with a disparate group of people in my first coaching qualification.
was powerful in different ways because I was hearing from people that worked in industry and business in third sector, in utilities, with very different experiences of leadership management and the organization they worked in. And I think that was good to learn from them. So I found both very different and both good in different ways.
Charlie Warshawski (34:05.804)
Yes. Yes, yes, I agree. mean, people, people who sign up for our coach training ask, is it better to be, you know, education specialist or NHS specialist group with, know, your peers? Or is it better to be in a group with people from other sectors? And I haven’t got an answer. There’s pros and cons of both. And you’re one of the few who has experienced both. So it’s really good. And it’s really interesting to hear that. And how did it feel?
knowing that you’ve really put in all of these time, know, the first qualification, it’s almost like putting the cork is in it, getting used to the rudiments, being able to do the basics. And then in the second qualification, it means, you know, I do like to assess the coaching that happens when you get the second qualification. It’s advanced, it’s more skillful, it’s more impactful. So I suppose what do you notice about the difference between your coaching right now in 2024, as opposed to, let’s say in 2020?
JT (35:02.126)
think the some of it would be similar structurally, know, doing that first qualification and being able to understand and grip a good coaching session, all that looks like and the flow, and then see it within a wider arc. I think I have that. But I think in this most recent qualification and working with other, you know, school heads on it, I think the difference would be the certainly the quality.
of listening skill and
being able to have the presence to get down the right rabbit hole and to keep going down it and getting to some really interesting places. And I think that nuancing of going that level deeper, I don’t mean that to sound cheesy, but it’s the best way I can sum it up. I think that’s been the difference. And I can think of moments where
Charlie Warshawski (35:43.511)
Yeah.
JT (36:05.878)
Certainly I might have used the same techniques, know, the either or question, ors, all these coaching techniques that you might have. And I’d have used that a few years ago.
but I think I’d have used it almost consciously. So I’m in that first round in my head, there’s that structure in my head, there’s that, okay, I need to do an either or question now, or in my head, gosh, I need to bring us to a summary and moving on point. Whereas going at it again, a few years later with many hours under the belt reflecting, taking it higher, I found that things like the structure,
and things like the type of question felt a lot more inherent, like they’d just come out without me having to necessarily overthink it, which meant I could be more present actually listening to what the person said, second for second, intently. And then the response to that being far more authentic. So not thinking, well, I’ve got to drop in one of my favorite either or questions now, either do it or not, or I do something else.
JT (37:17.292)
more based on that person, not just based on what I thought a good coaching session looked like. So I think it became, does this sound right? More automated is the wrong word. More natural, probably better.
Charlie Warshawski (37:30.892)
Yeah. Yes. Yeah. And I, I we observed that I do remember that from some of your sessions, but I think that idea of like, you know, the pressure often I hear in like in first round of coach training, you know, level five or level three, people are like, do it right, get it right, the right question. And there was a, and I think the same as you probably see with trainee teachers, like, yeah, get it right and organize this dude, you know, and it feels, it feels professional and intense. Whereas
What I observe when it’s a second one is a bit more of handing over to them, giving the time, waiting for my moment, understanding that the talk time that they’re giving is useful for them. So when you do that, when you coach in this way, what do you notice? What are some favorite moments, things that happen that you observe? Obviously, we are broadcasting, so confidentiality is paramount. But some things that you’ve seen that are really strong.
JT (38:27.236)
I think some of my favorite bits, a recurring theme I suppose is a sense of confidence where you’ve got to a position where someone can articulate and feel it and action it. And there’s been a couple of times recently with coaching where, I mean, there’s the classics where I might have been coaching someone and they’re coaching up to a promotion.
So they’ve gone from a position of not being so short to a position of getting a first headship. And that’s a very easy win there. You know, I’ve helped me go over that line. But actually more powerfully, a couple of my favourite moments have been very different. You know, I can think of working with a colleague who was working as a teaching assistant. And actually the confidence they needed was being able to articulate what they really felt about their upcoming retirement to their colleagues and partner.
and having a confidence to do that. And also having a confidence to plan and execute a post-retirement action plan. you know, on paper, joining the local sailing club doesn’t sound quite as impressive as becoming ahead. But for that person, it was a massive gain in their confidence. And I think listening to them and being able to see that come to fruition has been really good. And I think the other thing that I’ve enjoyed, I
I was thinking about this earlier before talking to you. You sometimes get with these really good coaching sessions, this kind of sideways movement into areas you don’t expect. But actually for the person, it’s the most important thing. And what you’ve been talking about up to then isn’t the most important thing. It’s kind of a shell for the most important thing. So can think of one,
with a colleague where an initial coaching session or sessions talked about job promotion, how effective they were being time management. And actually as we went on, it got more more interesting. And it wasn’t about that at all. It was about whether the fiance was going to propose. It was about having a baby or not. And it was about whether to quit that job altogether and move back to the North. And working with that person to see them in time, flip all of that because for that person, all of those three things, were waiting for someone, they were waiting for the job promotion, they were waiting for the proposal and everything else. after quite a few sessions, seeing that person say, no, no, I’m going to propose to him. And yes, we are having a baby. I have quit and I’ve got a job in Leeds.
And that was one of the happiest coaching sessions I’ve ever had. Well, for that person that has just, they’ve just smashed it. You know, they found confidence and that was very rare, you know, in all those levels. mean, what, what a result. doesn’t normally happen like that, but I suppose when you have that, that sideways move to something that is really important, but has perhaps been present in those first coaching contract conversations, but is underneath the bonnet.
JT (41:52.386)
waiting to be found, that’s been my favourite bit.
Charlie Warshawski (41:53.719)
Yes.
Wow. And that’s joyous to hear that that idea that that realization that that someone has got some control and got some agency and you you’re talking very non-traditional things, aren’t you? Like, yeah, a woman proposing to a man that, you know, it feels very 21st century. But nevertheless, it must take a woman an awful lot of something to be able to move to that place. I’m thinking, John, when we’re talking here, I very much feel like and we are this is two fellow coaches having a good chat and talking about coaching.
But you’ve got proper day job as well, right? You are a head teacher of a school as well. So we should definitely put in a few minutes about, you know, what does it mean to your school knowing that their head is a coach? You were a qualified coach when you got this job, right? And you took the second, well, you moved, I think, in that transition moment for the second one. So what does it mean to the school, to the chair of governors, maybe to your leadership team, to your TAs, everyone else, that you’re not only a coach, but you really champion coaching?
JT (42:56.206)
Well, I think actually it’s for them, I would hope it’s just my way of being. one of the challenges I found coaching in a couple of school settings now being head is it can be very hard. If you’re offering on the 10 coaching sessions to your colleagues and you’re naming it to such, you’re planning and providing it as such. It’s really tough.
not to be drawn into mentoring, which we can talk about. So certainly in my prior setting, once I was established there for a few years, I had a really good management team in place. I was really able to have the confidence with colleagues, know them so well, to be able to get into some coaching with them because the structures were such, I knew who they could go to for mentoring or for direction.
And I think in this setting here, you know, I’m just the beginning of my second year in post. So it’s still quite early days for ahead. You’re still very much establishing yourself, your vision relationship. So I think for now in my setting, I’ve been careful not to offer my immediate reports, direct coaching. I’ve carried on coaching outside the organization just to keep myself teed up.
within the organization, I’ve been quite careful. But I think what I have done, certainly with the way I’ve started setting up flow and meetings, is having that time to bring people together often in one to ones and have a semi-structured or even unstructured session where we’re talking about how things are going. And that for me is a coaching session by self.
So I’m, we’re coming for a one to one catch up. I don’t post it as coaching, but I would hope that where those conversations are going well, colleagues are coming back saying, know, actually that was good. JT’s listening to me first and foremost and he’s giving me a little bit of steer, but it’s feeling like we’re on the same page here. I think that’s early days and what I’d hope in the next few years as I establish in this environment.
JT (45:17.026)
I think I’ll have the confidence then to probably be more discreet, tick you about, okay, we’re going to do some coaching here, here and here. So for now it’s quite stealthy and I’d hope in summary people would notice just some really good listening and hopefully some good questions to get that flow.
Charlie Warshawski (45:36.036)
And actually, mean, the two things that I think about firstly, I don’t think anyone ever goes home and complains about their boss saying, God, he’s really annoying. just listens so much. You know, it’s annoying. You know, they would appreciate, I’m sure, some listening time and some good quality listening. And it made me think of a fellow head who’s gone down the same pathway as you, you know, one and then a second qualification. And he was working with his deputy having that type of conversation. And
his deputy at the end of the conversation didn’t say, thank you, Simon. That was great. She said, thank you, coach. That was great. And he was really hooked by that. was like, well, that’s a wonderful thing. And it is, isn’t it? The idea that you know when there’s a time, don’t you? You know when there’s a time when they need something. They need a nod, a stare, something direct. And you can also pick up that there’s a time when you think, I can just be there listening here, and I can ask that question.
Charlie Warshawski (46:32.95)
How confident do you now feel that you balance those two times of when I must be direct or clear or, you know, give an answer as opposed to I can relax into the listening and coaching.
JT (46:48.804)
think many of these things, it depends, I’d say it depends on the context. I’ve been asked this question elsewhere in a different way, but I think you have to be careful. And I often think of having a toolkit, having a little toolbox. And there’s times where you want to dip into it and you want to just pull out a pair of ears. And that’s really all there is to it. Simply by listening is very simply all you have
do and you have to wind yourself in. And I think that comes into different ways. It’s just because at the moment now I work in a foundation. So we’ve got three schools and I’m working collaboratively with an executive. So, know, it’s from other schools. And as you can imagine, there are
JT (47:38.648)
things that we have in common, we want to get done and share. And there’s also times where it can be quite frustrating because you can see the resource in the foundation going to X, where you think, I want to go to Y. So it does take a bit of diplomacy. So I found in that context, using the listening coach there, not just with people that report to me, but with my trustees and with the executive around me has been really useful.
in the last year. And likewise, giving directionality. I’m convinced the longer I’m in this game, it’s about context. mean, having the confidence to be hopefully direct if sometimes what’s required in terms of clarity in terms of, you know, moral leadership in terms of doing the right thing is important. But I think you’re never going to
JT (48:37.482)
Or let me put this another way, if you do that and then don’t listen alongside, there’s always that risk of missing a trick. And you know, I can think of many situations where it’s the team around me that have added the real value and got somewhere remarkable. hasn’t been me. All I’ve perhaps done is synthesized it in a conductor of the orchestra.
JT (49:04.64)
I think a lot of good heads, that’s how they view themselves. You’re like a conductor. If you’re trying to be be all and end all, that way ego and arrogance can lie. Mistakes, whereas if you are collaborative, as long as you have good people around you, or can create or help people to become better around you, then there’s the orchestra.
Yeah, yeah. And it’s funny, isn’t it? Because head teachers are perfectly well placed because you have been teachers, because you know about, you know, you bring students on and you teach them and then so you bring your leaders on and teach them. I think the point that you’re making, I think it’s really helpful for school leaders who are thinking about becoming coaches and they’ll hear a lot of, you you know, you’ve got you and a hundred IAPS colleagues plus who
have learned to be coaches. So it’s significant, you know, and there’s definitely a movement of travel of school leaders becoming coaches. And I think one of the worries is if I’m a headteacher coach, I’m just a headteacher coach rather than so I’ve got to stop advising, I’ve got to stop being direct. And I think your message is really clear is actually there you still reserve the right there are still moments and there’s still really important moments where being direct is not only the right thing to do, but it’s also the most supportive thing to do. You know, you’re not you’re not leaving people to
to struggle too much that’s really, really significant. So it’s really great to hear all of these things. And I do want to, I want to ask one personal question before we start bringing into this to the close. That you like, like lots of, lots of people in leadership, lots of coaches find that the listening skills, you don’t just leave them, you know, on your desk at five o’clock, you go home, right? So how, how has coaching, do you think impacted, particularly you as a parent?
JT (50:50.23)
yeah, that’s a good one. I mean, I think as a parent, yeah, it has helped and probably a good time. My kids are both in their college years now.
JT (51:04.632)
I suppose part of it is just when you get the miles in as a parent, know, it is a very rapid learning cycle. Stuff that you’ve learned as a teacher can be useful, but it doesn’t prepare you for parenthood and the emotion of that. It’s remarkable. I I can think of times when my kids were younger. I’m very cool having a crisis at school. No matter what, know, we’re on fire, we’re under fire, whatever it is, I stay pretty calm.
But can think of times when, know, my son injured himself on a school trip and I got a call from the school. That was a mess. I was bawling with tears. It was remarkable. yeah, I think as a parent, especially I found as my kids are now adults, it has helped me understand that.
got to listen and pause. I think the differential would be, I think I’m far more, I mean, they’re little grownups now, so I have to take it. But I think inherently, alongside my coaching, I have got better at trying to get my head into the wavelength of where my children are. And sometimes it’s been, you know, it can be uncomfortable. can think of times where I mean, I’m lucky, my kids are fantastic.
I’m so proud of them and they’re just gorgeous. you know, late teens, early teens, they can get pretty self-centered, a bit selfish. And I found myself quite a few times, other than doing preachy dad, teacher, mentor, actually stopping myself as a coach and saying, just wait a minute, actually, for my daughter or son now, the center of their little world is them and they’re made for whatever. I need to get into that space with them.
Charlie Warshawski (52:43.128)
Thanks
JT (53:01.858)
And I think by doing that, it’s been beneficial because I’ve given them what they need, which is sometimes listening, sometimes giving some advice, sometimes just a bit of information, sometimes just taking it, you know. And you get into that habit, do, you get that coaching habit. We’ve talked about this before with my boy the other week, he’s doing neuroscience at Manchester Uni, very, very much brilliant. I don’t know what he gets it for.
We’re talking in a pub last week, I’m visiting him. He dad, I’m going to go and get my first tattoo. And of course my parent, my parent instinct was like, well, I know, you know, let’s do this, do that, do the other. And I thought, the coaching habit got me straight away. And I just went straight back with the suit. interesting. What’s made you think about that son? What would you like this to be? And actually I found.
just by asking him a few questions. He actually organized himself a bit. And at end of the conversation, he he wasn’t a complete wimp, but he said, you know what, I think I’m gonna get that tattoo a bit smaller and on top of my arm, other than here, I was like, yeah, result. That’s a coaching result there.
Charlie Warshawski (54:18.072)
Brilliant, okay. Well, who knew that tattoo coaching was a thing? mean, you’ve done better than me, John. You know, my daughter had a tattoo and she told me about it about two years after she got it. I did wonder why she was never taking her top off in the summer, her jacket. And we found out the answer why I’ve had. Look, this has been absolutely joyful and so wonderful to hear this and to follow you from South Manchester and John Smith all the way around the continents and…
And back here to a third headship and a second coaching qualification and adult children you’re listening to and all of your coaching impacts. to finish this off, just a word, like what is it about coaching? If you were going to give us a 30 second, what is it that has really hooked you about coaching? know, another way of asking this, the cheesy way is of course, what is it that you love about your coaching?
JT (55:11.568)
I think it’s that sense of you get into a space and at some point you get this drop and it’s emotion. And that’s a good thing. it can be sometimes it can be, it can be tough. It can be, you know, I’ve seen people, you know, tears in terms of reflection and getting to a tough place and other times real joy and having that genuinely by listening, by questioning.
by being with that person is that it’s so good as a coach. It’s such a rush. You get to that truth with a person. It’s amazing. It always happens. The way it does it’s brilliant.
Charlie Warshawski (55:57.492)
And I think that this is, I often think that if coaches weren’t coaches, would be other roles in the voluntary sector. know, they would be teachers or they would be nurses or they would be charity workers, they would be social workers doing things because of that desire and that need to want to be of service and to help people help themselves is really significant. John, thank you so much for coming along and sharing all of these rich and interesting things. And I’m sure that the listeners here, coaches who are in education,
but also coaches who aren’t in education will get lots, lots out of this. So thank you very much.
JT (56:30.212)
Thanks very much for having me, Charlie. It’s been a delight as ever.
Charlie Warshawski (56:33.144)
Honestly, it’s a real pleasure. It’s a real pleasure. And fellow coaches, I hope that as with all these episodes with guests, that there’s something there for you, whether it is a technical thing about a coaching skill, whether it is a relational thing about thinking about you and your coaching clients, or whether it is a motivational thing about being able to share with potential coaching clients, you know, the benefits of coaching. I think you’ve heard loads and loads of stuff from John.
today. So I hope you’ve enjoyed it and look forward to you tuning in next time and happy coaching.
About Charlie:
I’m Charlie Warshawski, a UK based coach, coach trainer and supervisor. Coaching has been my thing since 2007 and I’ve been keen to start this podcast, to help fellow coaches navigate the difficulties of running a coaching business or practice. Most of my coaching takes place in education and I love coaching school leaders. And most of the supervision I do is with coaches who are starting their coaching practice.
Since 2019 I’ve been supporting new and experienced coaches with resources to help them grow their business – our free The Sustainable Coach programme is available to all coaches, and over 200 coaches have accessed these resources.
Away from coaching, four children, three pets, a poor table tennis and cycling schedule and a thirst for language learning all keep me busy.
Love Your Coaching Resources:
- Visit our website
- Learn more about our courses and coaching qualifications
- Contacts: charlie@loveyourcoaching.com | hello@loveyourcoaching.com| 01306 264026 | 0774 8515189
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