In this episode, Charlie talks with Hilary Oliver, MCC coach, ICF coach mentor and 2017 ICF Global Chair. Hilary’s contribution to the world of coaching goes back for 20 years and she came to talk to us about her extensive experience. Together, they explore Hilary’s background and career, the changes she has seen in her 20 years as a coach and much more. Main Topics Discussed in the Episode:
In this conversation, Hilary and Charlie explore what it’s like to be a seasoned coach, who has seen many changes in the industry.
She talks about how she became a coaching mentor then a supervisor, and the value she places on rigorous professional practice
We also talk about why she became a coach in the first place, and why, many years on, her passion for coaching still burns brightly.
Each story shared brings real-life insights that coaches at all levels can relate to and learn from.
If you’d like to learn more about Hilary’s background and profile, you can visit:
Useful Links From This Episode:
Transcript:
So sorry about that. Okay, well, I’ll do my little clap. I’ll do my little clapping thing.
So welcome back and Hillary has been, her career mirrors this podcast in a way. It’s been a bit of a career of two halves in the context of her coaching. The first half, this early experience and getting lots of coaching experience and qualification. And then you trained to be a coaching supervisor and started thinking about supervising and mentoring fellow coaches. What precipitated that change?
So a number of things, think. First of all, supervision was fairly new in the coaching supervision was fairly new in the organized in a world that we lived in. And certainly in the UK, it was ahead of the time before, know, coaching has always came from the US over to the over to the UK and Europe. And then all of a sudden we found that coaching supervision was was actually in the forefront in in UK and Europe. I also have a passion for professionalism.
And through doing, beginning to do training of other coaches, because I was training leaders to be more coach-like. And then also I had started doing, beginning to do some training of coaches as well for an organization. And I thought supervision was something that piqued my interest because it is about helping people maintain their professionalism. It’s not about making them professional, but it’s an important piece of work to do.
So I looked at it and I thought, well, I’m going to go and do that because I wanted, I didn’t want to follow the crowd. If you like, I wanted to see what that was like and see if that was something of interest. And I actually really enjoyed it and liked it a lot. The organization that I trained with then asked me if I would do some mentoring of that training in the, you go as a mentor, one of the training people. And then I created a small mentoring program.
Charlie (21:14.36)
to mentor people on their skill set. So this is in some ways, again, ahead of the time, because mentoring was only coming into place really, even for people’s credentials in that sort of timescale. So both supervision and providing mentoring spoke to me about helping people really become their professional best.
because coaching is a profession, in my view, it’s not regulated, but it is a profession in the sense we deliver a service and we need to deliver it well. So that’s what got me into looking at both supervision and mentoring.
I love that idea that supervision and mentoring isn’t about teaching people, but it’s about maintaining a standard. almost like the phase two, people have done their training, they’ve got their basics, they learn the models and all of that. And then to keep the practice up and to be rigorous around it, there are these other support mechanisms. So you’re a qualified supervisor and then you start working on programs.
You’re assessing people as well as supporting the assessment for ICF accreditations. What’s it like? How do you compare and contrast working with coaches as opposed to working with coaching clients?
That’s a good question. Because there are some similarities, because whenever you’re supervising or mentoring, it’s not really telling. However, there is probably a bit more telling as a mentor, because you’re having to give feedback in a way that people will understand that’s going to really support them to develop their skill set. And so it’s there’s an element of telling, but you’re hoping that along the way, people will actually start understanding.
Hilary 1 (23:01.132)
themselves what you’re saying and listening to their own recordings and being able to develop themselves in a way by giving them the mechanisms to look at their coaching specifically. And back then, we also didn’t have such wonderful, I can only talk with ICF heads as it were, but we didn’t have such great examples like PCC markers where that came out which helped us provide evidence-based feedback for mentoring.
Back then, we just had the competencies, which were quite large and sometimes not as specific as I would have liked them. And I think they’re way, they’re much more refined now with the languaging and what have you. So it was really trying to help people understand what mentor, what competencies really were about and therefore to mentor them to be better, their best coach that they could be and develop their coaching. Supervision.
was a very different place because that’s much more acquired in my view, a quieter piece of work where you’re getting people to reflect on their own work, not competency based or skill based, but what’s going on for them. And I found that fascinating because I’m not a psychologist. haven’t done psychology, but there is a piece of that that’s around the psychology of, of the coach in front of you of what’s going on for them. That’s either enabling or hindering their clients.
That’s a lovely distinction, isn’t it? That thinking about mentoring people for an ICF or probably for an AC and EMCC type of accreditation that there are markers, there are levels, there are specific things that we need to hit. There’s a recording that will be assessed. We’re looking at a single coaching session and you describe supervision as something quieter and something with some psychological aspects. the sort of understanding of
the self as a coach and what are our drivers and why do we do this as opposed to that? It describes it as a richer process. Have you found over the years that you’ve done that bit of work, both supervising and mentoring with the same person or does it tend to be one person comes for supervision, one for mentoring?
Yes, and. So sometimes I’ve had mentors that we’ve also then said, let’s use, let’s go into supervision, because something’s going on. They know that I’m a supervisor. And so we would contract for a session to be supervision rather than a mentoring session. And there are other people who I’ve just purely mentored or I’ve just purely supervised. And I don’t think there’s any reason
why they wouldn’t do both. It’s just that’s what they need at the time. But I always say to people, think supervision is a really important piece of work to do because it helps you look at yourself. And the phrase I was given when I got trained, and I think it’s a brilliant phrase to describe supervision is to look at where the personal intrudes on the professionals. What’s going on in you that is going to help or hinder your clients and help or hinder yourself as well.
Whereas mentoring is a very specific piece of work. So it can, you know, it’s really important to do both. And I’m a real believer that even when you’ve done your, whether it’s for AC, EMCC or ICF, mentoring is really important to get that regularly through your year and supervision the same. And it could be, it could be you do two hours of one and two hours of the other over a year. Little is that, but it’s important.
Yes, and these are really important points. And I’m sure, and we’ll talk at another time about how the whole sector is organized and mandatory versus optional supervision. And we’re very different, aren’t we, in this sector? There aren’t the same sort of guidelines as, for example, social workers or therapists when it’s all a bit more mandatory. But let’s stick with you and think about your experience.
What do you enjoy? You talked about being professional, right? What do you enjoy about helping fellow coaches with their professional, like professionalism?
It’s, oh gosh, it’s actually quite a difficult question. What do I enjoy? I enjoy those coaches that really want to learn, understand and be their best. I don’t enjoy, because I think it’s important, people who want to tick a box. And they’re very different people. So those coaches that come to me to be mentored or indeed even supervised, it’s a little bit like…working out are you the right person for them. So I’m always interested in why are they doing it? What’s the purpose of being mentored? What’s the purpose of getting your accreditation with whoever it might be? Or what’s the purpose of you being supervised? And if it’s because they need to do it because of ticking a box, I’m probably not the right person for them. And so I get joy out of people who really want to learn. And because I think that’s how I was, I really wanted to do
best I be. It’s also why I joined and got involved with the ICF profession as it were, the professional body, because I felt that’s really important to really understand that side of things as well if I’m going to support people.
Yes, do know when you said that it reminded me when I trained to be a supervisor, I remember reading this expression, business as usual supervision, as in someone turns up for a supervision session and basically says, asks us a question. So am I doing OK? Is this session all right? Is my coaching OK? And they’re sort of looking for bit of green lighting yet nothing to worry about, nothing to see. And I found that fascinating and then but also quite challenging because how do you help someone?
go beyond that.
I think that’s a really good way of words to use to go beyond just business as usual.
Yes, yes. I mean, I do when people inquire for us about thinking about getting a coaching qualification, I think often people say, because I really need the badge, I really need the badge. You know, I’ve been training, I’ve been coaching forever, but I’m not a badge, I really need the badge. And I always ask, and do you want anything else? Do want the skills as well? And they’re like, yeah, maybe. And I always sort of take it with a pinch of salt, because I always trust that actually, once you get into your learning, coaches generally are like you, they’re real sort of
You know, learning enthusiasts and it doesn’t take much to want to move beyond just thinking you need the badge. But also, you know, people are under commercial pressures, aren’t they? If someone has said you need a level whatever in order to get on this framework or this platform, people might respond to that a little bit much.
me? Well, if I may, I’ll tell a story because that’s so true. I was doing a training program, which was very intense training program. And there was, I was the only facilitator, which is quite unusual. And there was about 12 people. And on that training program, there was this gentleman who had come who was a gentleman of, you know, up the age a bit, had been a consultant. And he had been and he realized that this was
This was around about 2012, that sort of time that coaching was, you know, the thing everyone was wanting. So he, he thought, well, I need to get the badge for that. And after the first day I could see wasn’t particularly happy. And the second day when I was, did a little bit of, know, how’s it going? Cause very intense. And he basically said, well, I don’t think this is, this is coaching. said, this isn’t what my clients want. My clients want to be told what to do and what have you. And it was, it was a really difficult time because.
Charlie (30:54.582)
what he was looking at was I want to get the badge, but I don’t believe this is what my clients want because he was a consultant coming at it. There’s nothing wrong with consultants, but that’s not what coaching is. And the rest of the day was really tricky because he was kind of trying to bring in a couple of the other guys on the course into it, who, know, that sort of thing. So it it was really quite tough. And so at the end of the day, I had a conversation with him and said, I understand where you’re coming from. really do. However,
you need to look at this and say, are you coming on this to learn about what coaching really is and whether it can be useful to you? Or do you just want a badge? Because if you just want the badge, then this really isn’t the place because it’s going to be hard work for the next four days. And he said, I’ll go away and think about it. And he came in the next morning and he did. He had obviously decided he was going to just sort of be a bit more open-minded, et cetera. By the Saturday when we finished,
And I’m not saying this about me either, is, but by the Saturday when we’d finished, he actually, when we were doing our celebration final piece, you know, the sort of things you do, he broke down in tears and said, he never really understood what this was about and now did and how different and how powerful, et cetera, it was. And it was just lovely to see that change. So people who come with tick boxes can go out with a great present, which is what I think he did.
That’s a wonderful story. It’s joyous to hear. yeah, often people, they learn this, don’t they? They learn and they see actually it’s a different thing. And if I can repost your story of a coach who was like that in 2012 with my own, because it’s my story of me with you, right? When I came to you, as you remember, in 2012 for some coach mentoring for my, I didn’t know what, ACC or BCC. And I remember,
Very early I discovered that what I’ve been doing wasn’t really coaching. It was something else It was it was a sort of hybrid of a bit of coaching a bit of consulting and some colored pens I read and I remember thinking after our second Second mentoring session when you’d been you’ve been very gentle But pretty clear that what I needed to do was learn to do this differently I remember thinking right well what I can do I can do this I can learn I can do it I can do this whole
Hilary (33:18.882)
you know, coaching, asking, non-directive thing. And when I get my PCC, but I can still carry on over with me funky colored pens. And that was definitely, definitely in my mind. I don’t think I ever admitted that to you. But over the years, over the couple of years we worked together, that just, it just, it wasn’t the four day epiphany that this guy had, but it fell away. You know, it fell away from like, actually that’s not what I wanted to do. And I never went back to it. But certainly on day one, that that’s what I thought. I thought that coaching was.coaching with a bit of guidance, with the odd tips and tricks and you know and some people still teach that so that is fascinating isn’t it?
to say Charlie, I’ve always admired the fact that you stayed with it and that you took it because I can remember thinking to myself, I don’t know how I’m going to say this because it was tough because we did it face to face as well if you remember. I still to this day admire the fact you stayed with it and then rightly you got to the point where you’re going, this is what I really enjoy doing it this way, not the other way. So I kind of knew that you in a way that there was still this bit of I’ll still use my coloured pens. But yeah, it’s just it’s just how things are. But now look at where you are.
Well, thank you. Well, I mean, I have to I do have to say that, you know, people say to me, you know, when we’re training, you know, do you worry? Do you think that that you work with someone on day one and they’re not very good, you’ll never get them there? And I think your example with me sort of holds me in good stead, because I think that we can all be wobbly on day one and all get it wrong. The challenge I think you had for me was that, you know, I’d had five years of learning to do it the wrong way. So there was a lot of undoing. But but you asked me this most beautiful question without any judgment at all.
You’d listen to a recording or you watched a recording of me with my coloured pants and you said, I think the question was, do you always coach like that? Is this your normal standard? And I was a bit shocked, but I also felt on reflection, like it was an inquiry, know, was a question to say, is this what you’ve been taught? And when I said, yes, this is what I’ve been taught, you said, okay, well.
That’s one version of coaching. We have a different one, something like that. So, yeah, I I’ve learned so much from that. And actually, you know, 15 years later, I don’t mind that I was taught badly in the wrong way and whatever, because, you know, it just becomes part of the tapestry over the years, doesn’t it?
without shadow of doubt, absolutely right. You come across all sorts of people who do a great job. It’s not, and I think you used the words, it’s not coaching as I would look at it, as we would look at it. It is a form of coaching and it isn’t about being judgmental either, but it’s not the coaching that we mainly think about, but people pay for it. And they do a good job.
And I said, we can’t be attached to it forever. I I read a paper by Anthony Grant who said, it’s like it comes in waves, know, like there’s 10 years when coaching is a bit advisory back in the day and then it’s gone into this big non advisory and there’d be some more advisory coming, you know, when I read leadership coaching books, it’s all full of models and structures. And I mean, I know I’m very attached to non-directive coaching and I think that the…
coaching contract when we say you’re curious, resourceful and whole that you… that we undermine it by going into a mentoring approach. But if someone calls himself a coaching style of mentor or a coach sultan or something like that, you know it’s a variation on the theme and yeah we can’t own the word can we?
No, and I think the key for me though is, did that person get trained in whatever form of coaching that they’re delivering? Or did they read a book and make it up? Because that’s, I think, the danger. So if they’ve been trained in a way, it’s like you were trained to do what you did originally. That’s not saying it was bad. It was a form of coaching that you were taught. But it wasn’t what you were really needing to do as a person with a then going for a
and more of an international qualification.
Yes, yes, I know. for me, it was a game changer, you know, and it’s now it’s I mean, we’re in 2024 and it was 2014. So it’s 10 years ago getting that certification and it was and it gave me like like your PCC gave you your your confidence. I think it did lots for me. And talking of that, because you pushed on and in 2020 you got your MCC, which for those who don’t know, it’s it’s
It’s a rare qualification that I don’t know what the exact numbers I think there’s only about 60 or 70 people in the UK who’ve got an MCC and worldwide. it’s fewer than fewer than 1 % of ICF coaches. That’s so that that’s keeping going two and a half thousand hours that’s keeping going still with loads of one to one coaching. What was that like as you progressed and improved to that two and a half thousand hours level?
Given that I was doing a lot of mentoring supervision and I was also doing a lot of organisational work for the ICF, it wasn’t easy to keep the hours going because two and a half thousand, does take, it takes a momentum there to keep going. And I really wanted to make sure that I had those hours. And so…
So getting the hours would be slotting into all of the other stuff because you cannot count mentoring, cannot count supervision as those hours either. However, because I was doing coaching, because I was mentoring and supervising, there’s also this thing that I had, which was if I’m mentoring and supervising, I still ought to be coaching reasonably amount because how can I…
How can I say to others what they need to do if I’m not keeping my own skill set up? So it took a long time. I actually did have the hours before 2020 and I’ll be really honest here. One of the things I also need to understand is when you’re assessed, how are you going to assess me? What are the criteria? What are the evidence? And what have you? And until then around 2019,
I couldn’t work out what the assessment process was. That has now been tidied up a lot more. I think personally, there’s still more to be done and they’re still working on it. But I began to see what I needed to do to become an MCC. Because an MCC coach is quite a different style of coaching than say a PCC coach, which is the kind of the gold standard. It’s saying that’s what you do when you’re doing professional coaching. MCC.
is quite difficult to assess in many ways, which is why it’s taken such a long time to create assessment tools to do that. They are better now and there’s now something like two and a half thousand MCCs worldwide, whereas in 2020, you’re still around 600, you know, and you’re right, in the UK, there’s about 60, something like that. So I just decided to give it a go because I thought, well, I’d be now working for 20 years, I’ve been doing all of this work.
really I should start looking at it. So I went through a mentoring process. took, spent a year listening to MCC coaching, reading, getting mentored, having great discussions with people. And it then took, and as you all know, it took about seven, I did about seven recordings in order to get two sessions that I thought might pass. And I was very blessed that they did. And
You know, so it was really, it took a lot of hard work to do that. And because it took that hard work and as you rightly said at beginning, I am now retired. Last December, just before I retired, my MCC needed renewing and I renewed it on the basis that, know what? I’m so proud that I managed to get there. I want to have another three years where I can at least put those things after my name, whether I’m coaching, working or not.
that was really important to me to get there.
And that’s joyous to hear and I was very lucky to be the recipient, your coachee through that process and fellow listeners, if you want to know what a PCC, an MCC level recording is like, what passes, it’s on our YouTube channel, the coaching demo of a few of the sessions that Hilary had with me. And it makes good listening because it’s hard to find sessions that actually have passed a…
past the qualification. So we’ve got that as a wonderful resource. And it’s joyous to know that you, even if you are a retiree, you can still hold onto that and you can still name that as your qualification. So I’m delighted to hear that.
So I say thank you because I didn’t name you as the one, the recordings I did, because that’s between, you know, it’s so and I know you’ve got these on your YouTube, but the work we did was I really enjoyed the work we did. And I think that’s the difference is you got to enjoy your work as well.
Yes, well that really brings me to my very last question. mean, we talked about this and I really hope you will come back and we’ll have another recording because I’d really love to get your take on the coaching industry in the sector and how it’s grown and developed and what it could do. And I think as someone who was Global Chair, you’ll definitely have a view so we can do that again. But my last question that I’m asking everyone and everyone so far has said to me,
God, that’s a really hard question. I’m sorry about it. But taking all of your experience as a coach, as a mentor, a supervisor, and someone who’s a really trailblazer for coaching, can you say a few things about what you really love about coaching? See what I mean? It’s a hard question, isn’t it?
Yeah, it’s a hard but it’s a really lovely question to actually look at. So what I really, really love is when you’re working with someone and you really see them grow and change and do things differently and get to where they really want to be. Because a lot of people don’t have huge goals. Sometimes they do, sometimes they don’t.
But being able to have the privilege of working with some people who really want to understand how to better themselves or become different so that they can get what they’re really dreaming about. And it could be, it doesn’t have to be in business, it could be just a different life or those sort of things. to have the privilege of working with people where they obtain that is a real thrill, I think, for me. It’s what I love the most.
those sort of people and working with them. And it’s not about people saying, thank you very much, you did it all, because actually you didn’t, it’s them that do it. But that quiet way of being able to just smile and look at how somebody has grown and changed. the other piece I like, so that’s the coaching bit, but also people who I’ve mentored and supervised, who have gone on themselves to become really good.
coaches and facilitators and what have you, who have developed their business or developed their school, Charlie, and developed themselves really well. And you can think, I had a little part of helping and supporting that person to get there. I think the final thing I would say is, and I think you know I have this expression also, because I don’t think coaching is about helping or supporting.
I used to think it was support, not help. It’s about being useful. And I think the joy I get from coaching and all of the modalities that I’ve worked in is being useful to people. And I think that to me is what gives me joy. And I really did and do find that this last 20 odd years that I’ve worked have been the most joyful.
And there’s that old expression of when work is a joy, it’s no longer work. So to me, it was never really work.
Well, thank you so much for sharing that. really hope someone from IBM isn’t listening in and you’ll get the angry letter. You’re saying, well, coaching is more enjoyable than life at IBM. It’s wonderful to hear those things. And yeah, I agree. A lot of coaches, we do talk about support, don’t we, and help. And so that idea of being useful, that’s one step beyond and that really pushes it on. And I think it’s wonderful that you, if you think about your two and a half thousand hours plus of coaching clients, but then you think about
How many hours have been done by all of those coaches that you’ve mentored and trained and supervised? That’ll go into 10 times out, 100 times out. So, so much good coaching has been influenced by that hard work that you’ve done. Hilary, it’s been a real joy. I mean, it’s always a joy to spend time with you and I’m sure the listeners would get lots out of this. So thank you so much for coming along.
It’s real pleasure and I look forward to the next time.
Thank you so much. And listeners, really do think about this. We all have our different journey. We all have our different experience of coaching. But the idea that, you know, Hillary has had a good run of it, the second half of her whole career, to be able to develop coaching to an advanced level, you you may be in the same position, you know, you may be in a position when you can put in 10 or 15 or 20 plus years to it and how wonderful and how joyful it would be. So whatever you take out of this, I hope it’s been useful and enjoy the rest of your day and
Happy coaching.
About Charlie:
I’m Charlie Warshawski, a UK based coach, coach trainer and supervisor. Coaching has been my thing since 2007 and I’ve been keen to start this podcast, to help fellow coaches navigate the difficulties of running a coaching business or practice. Most of my coaching takes place in education and I love coaching school leaders. And most of the supervision I do is with coaches who are starting their coaching practice.
Since 2019 I’ve been supporting new and experienced coaches with resources to help them grow their business – our free The Sustainable Coach programme is available to all coaches, and over 200 coaches have accessed these resources.
Away from coaching, four children, three pets, a poor table tennis and cycling schedule and a thirst for language learning all keep me busy.
Love Your Coaching Resources:
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- Contacts: charlie@loveyourcoaching.com | hello@loveyourcoaching.com| 01306 264026 | 0774 8515189
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