Introducing guest and episode:
In this episode, Charlie meets Ros Toynbee, MCC coach and learning and development manager at Ofcom, where she leads on and supports a business wide coaching support programme for this 1400 people strong organisation. Together, they explore Ros’s background and career, the changes she has seen in her 20 years as a coach and much more. Main Topics Discussed in the Episode:
In this conversation, Ros shares valuable insights about how to organise a business wide coaching programme, giving everyone in the organisation the chance to receive coaching. she talks of the joys of spreading the coaching message far and wide, and the impact of coaching for the organisation.
We also talk about why she became a coach in the first place, and why, many years on, her passion for coaching still burns brightly.
Each story shared brings real-life insights that coaches at all levels can relate to and learn from.
Connect with Ros Toynbee:
If you’d like to learn more about Ros’s own work or explore her coaching resources, you can visit:
Useful Links From This Episode:
Transcript:
Charlie (00:02.94)
Greetings fellow coaches. hope you’re having a very good week and a very, very warm welcome to our latest episode of the Love Your Coaching podcast. I hope you’ve been having some good coaching this week and I hope that the outcomes that your coaches are getting are positive and very focused. I’m delighted. I’ve been looking forward to this episode for quite a long time. In this series, we’re talking about how coaching gets sorted out and organized well in organizations.
And our guest today is Roz Toynbee who knows so much about how to organise coaching within organisations. Hi Roz, how are you doing today?
Ros Toynbee (00:40.984)
Hi, fantastic, thank you.
Charlie (00:42.674)
It’s good, really nice to have you along. So I’ll give you a bit of an intro to and then she can say a bit about herself. Roz is a very, very experienced coach and she works for Ofcom, the regulator, and her job is to organize and manage the whole of the coaching within that 1 ,400 strong person organization. Roz’s passion for coaching and passion for getting coaching out there is really, really exemplary and…
So Ros and I have been working together for the best part of a year and it’s been joyful seeing what she’s doing. as we start this podcast, it’d be really good if you gave our listener a bit of a flavor, your coaching background, tell us a couple of minutes about where it all came from.
Ros Toynbee (01:24.27)
I think like many people I sort of fell into coaching and it was a little bit of an element of luck and opportunity coming together but I was made redundant from a job up in Glasgow and I hired my first coach and we worked together for three months not so much about finding another job because I was really good at finding jobs but more on the personal stuff and it was him who had suggested have you ever thought of becoming a coach and I thought well absolutely not I’ve retrained from being a lawyer
To being a producer and a journalist for the BBC and for Scottish television, I’ve worked really hard to get there. I’m not about to change direction. But anyway, what happened was he planted a seed and the next job I took was with BBC Training and Development. And five weeks into the job, they started up their internal leadership and management coaching service, which is now award winning.
And I was just right time, right place. I asked my manager if I could get involved in this. I got on the first cohort of internal courses. And so that was just a really kind of fabulous opportunity for me to learn about coaching. And the more I got into it, the more excited I got. And the more I got, you know, got intrigued by it. Like it just, it was never ending for me. Like with coaching, you can go as deep and as far as you want to. You can work with lots of different people.And I just love the variety of people that I work with, the variety of challenges that they bring. I really felt that I found my thing, my niche when I came across coaching.
Charlie (03:02.588)
Thank so much for sharing that and it is interesting the BBC it comes up quite often I’ve met a whole number of coaches either internal in the BEEB or who used to work for the BBC and our core coach training course book by Jenny Rogers she was an ex -BBC and there’s plenty isn’t there so clearly the BBC has been a bit of a hot house for coaching so you learned to coach you developed your coaching skills did you stay in post were you coaching internally at the BEEB?
Ros Toynbee (03:29.014)
Yes, I was internally coaching. So because I’ve come from a production background, I tended to be put with editors and producers of Radio One programs and television programs and so on. But yes, that’s where I cut my coaching teeth. And I suppose I was also very lucky because being an internal coach in the first instance, I didn’t have to market for any of my clients. So I was able to alongside my training and I was doing training outside of the BBC as well.
but I was able to practice that training in real time and really grow my skills and my confidence as a coach really, really quickly.
Charlie (04:03.256)
It’s definitely, I do think that internal coaches have that really big advantage in terms of getting your coaching hours up because you’ve got to go and look for clients that they’re there. And in a way, it’s a bit of a shame that I know you’re so professional, Ross, because I’d love you to name drop a bit about some of the people that you’ve coached and the people, but we’re not even going to go there, Clearly not, clearly not. We’re just, we’re just, I’m just going to ponder and speculate about some of my favorite 70s DJs who got a bit of coaching. We’ll see.
And what was it like being in a community of coaches, like fellow coaches, other coaches around in the organisation?
Ros Toynbee (04:39.798)
It was awesome and I could very easily name drop here, but some of the people I was working with went on to get, you know, NBEs and all sorts of awards for the broadcasting work they did. So they were clever. They were ambitious. were just they had done extraordinary things in the organization that they’d worked from and they were my peers. And there was something about learning coaching with them and having my supervision with them that
Ros Toynbee (05:07.77)
elevated me that built my self confidence and my view of what was possible for me. ultimately, because I haven’t always been an internal coaching, I have also been on the outside as an external coach as well. It just it gave me something to build my own business in as well because my mum had always had her own business. I had wondered whether I had that in me.
And coaching gave me the vehicle to do that. And it’s the thing that I’ve stuck with. I’ve been doing it for 23 years now and I still love it. I’m still just as passionate about this thing called coaching. And I’m such an advocate for it inside my organization. I want everyone to experience what coaching can do for them.
Charlie (05:52.814)
And anyone who spends more than about five minutes in a room with you knows that, right? They feel that sense of real care and commitment and belief in coaching. I’m sure from what you just said that all of the freelance coaches listening here, their ears would have picked up like, she’s gone from an internal coach to running our coaching business. So give us a bit of a flavor of that. How did that all go?
Ros Toynbee (06:15.232)
Okay, so I, it’s kind of interesting because I left the BBC to work for another organisation. But before that, I was at a real decision point. Do I leave the secure full time job, which pays my mortgage? Or do I fly? Do I have my own business and see what I’m capable of? And so anybody who’s freelance will have will have stood on that precipice.
and wondered if they take a step forward, will they lift into the wind or will they fall down the cliff? And I flew. I went from full -time self -employment to full -time, sorry, full -time employment to full -time self -employment because Red Magazine had contacted me and were interested in career change and I was offering a career change program and they wrote a three -page article on me and my phone started to ring. So again, a sort of element of luck, but…
Charlie (06:48.743)
Yes.
Ros Toynbee (07:14.316)
I mean, I say luck, but I was ready. I was ready for it. I was kind of inviting the universe in and saying, you know, please show me what my next step should be. But I at the time I was making the decision when I was thinking about once I leave the BBC, do I go to another organization? Do I go full time with my job? I felt I needed to get greater experience of different sectors. So I actually chose to be PAYE a bit longer just so that I would.
Sorry, my printer is just going here. Can we just stop and edit? It’s gone in for a life of its own, but it’ll stop in a minute.
Charlie (07:50.758)
Alright, mine does it out about midnight, don’t worry.
Ros Toynbee (07:55.415)
I think it’s behaving now. Okay, so do you want to?
Charlie (07:57.488)
Okay fine. So what we do is we take a five second pause, I clap and then you just carry on as if, so maybe just go back to that where you said I thought I’d say P -A -Y -E for a bit longer and then carry on from there. Is that okay?
Ros Toynbee (08:18.606)
So I thought I’d stay PAYE for a little bit longer, get some other sector experience and I got some financial services experience, which actually was a really good thing to do. So that was a case of my head leading that decision, but my heart then leading 10 months later, I left to go full time with the business because by that time I was thinking, what am I waiting for? Like if I don’t do it now, when am I going to do it? So I just made the decision and I just went for it and I thought, well, you know what, if it doesn’t work, I can always go back in house again.
Ros Toynbee (08:47.32)
But the interesting thing is that, you know, I could be sitting here and having my own business now, but I actually chose to go back in to an organization after the pandemic, partly because I was sick of the sight of my own company and the four walls around me. And I wanted to be part of a team. wanted to be part of a project that was bigger than me. And I wanted to be able to go into an office again. And so when a role came up with an Ofcom, I decided to seize it.
with both hands because I thought here’s an opportunity to be in a very quickly growing company at the time it was growing by a third in the space of about a year and to really make my mark in the leadership development space and also in intern coaching. So wasn’t brought in to do the coaching but I saw that there was a real opportunity too and so yes I seized that as well.
Charlie (09:44.53)
So we will start getting into Ofcom in a couple of minutes and there’s loads, but I just want to pick up one more thread about you and your coaching business, because that period of time from when you left the BEEB and then the financial services and before you came to Ofcom after the pandemic, your coaching business, was it like a 100 % coaching business or did you blend coaching and leadership development work or how did it all mix up?
Ros Toynbee (10:11.116)
Yes, it was a blend of leadership development work and coaching. So I was delivering, training, facilitating, facilitating away days, that sort of thing as well. And one feeds on the other. So the data that you get from doing leadership development work supports the coaching work and vice versa, and it keeps you up to date.
Charlie (10:28.978)
And how did you think each supported each other for your skills? you you’re training on a Monday, you’re coaching on a Tuesday. Was there like a, I mean, this is a massively leading question, right? But was there like a mutual harmony between learning those two things and getting better at the two?
Ros Toynbee (10:46.058)
Yes, because when you’re facilitating, you’re using a coach approach, aren’t you? You are listening. What’s really going on with this individual? How are they relating to this, this presenting challenge for them? And with training, you’re sometimes bringing in models. And then what you’re doing is you’re, you’re having people apply something in a kind of practical, there’s opportunities for feed for observation and feedback. So, so yes, you’re using all of your coaching skills in their facilitation environment. I also think as well it built my ability to start coaching more and more senior people as well though, because when I started out my practice, I was coaching the sort of team leader, team supervisor level and a little bit above because that’s where I started at the BBC. And after more than a decade of doing that, you start building your confidence and your skill set.
for working with more senior leaders who perhaps need a little bit more challenge. You need to be a little bit more robust when you’re coaching for senior people. So, yes, it just gave me all of that experience. I was just, again, very lucky that I had good client relationships that gave me repeat work. That was my bread and butter work paid for the mortgage. And then that allowed me to develop other things.
Charlie (12:06.908)
Yeah.
Ros Toynbee (12:08.962)
Part of it was leadership, part of it also was career development as well. And I think there’s so much crossover between the two. know, if you’ve got a leader who is finding it hard to get to the next level, often the skills that got them to the point they’re at are stopping them from getting them to the next level. And so again, doing the career side alongside the leadership stuff really supported that.
Charlie (12:35.484)
So it’s, I mean, this is something I talk about quite a lot, the importance of having a bit of a portfolio when you, rather than try and get just a coaching to pay the mortgage, I know very few coaches who pay a mortgage through coaching. We need to have these other strands for our boat, don’t we? But also there, you talk really well about the fact that it benefits you, it helps you grow and develop and find more clients and there’s lots of wins. Last question, I promise, before we really get into Ofcom.
You said you were getting a bit sick of the sight of yourself and actually itching to get back into an organisation. But what were you sad to let go of? What were you sad to put down in running your own business before going back to the organisation?
Ros Toynbee (13:18.839)
That’s really interesting. I suppose you have a little bit more autonomy when you have your own business. You get to choose the clients you work with. If there’s somebody who you don’t want to work with, you don’t have to work with. And I know when you’re starting out, it’s different. You take whoever comes your way. But once you’ve developed a reputation and you have established for yourself that you can.
You know, you can that your coaching business can meet your needs and you can choose because you’re in a space to do that. It’s really nice having having said that, I do have a lot of autonomy where I am in the way that I’ve gone about delivering things off com. So it doesn’t feel like something that I’ve really had to give up. I’m sure there’s another answer to that question, but I think I need to mull over it.
Charlie (14:07.046)
Well, we’ve got plenty of time. Have a bit of mulling. And talking of mulling, now would be a good time for us all. Let’s take a little bit of a break. What we’ll do is we’ll come back in a few minutes and really talk about the influence and what’s happened with Roz at Ofcom. But for our listeners, have a think about your journey. I always think that when we hear about someone’s coaching experience, and particularly someone’s experience as Roz, there might be some parallels and there might be some lessons to be learned. So have a reflect on that for a couple of minutes. Get a cup of tea.
and we’ll see you back in a couple of minutes.
Charlie (14:41.916)
So as I promised, Ross, we will start talking about Ofcom. I’ve been lucky to be able to be partly the observer, but also part of this process on, if you like, the receiving end of this process that you’ve got going on at Ofcom. You said you weren’t employed at Ofcom in order to do this. So how did it turn up? How did the, you know, when the music stopped and Ross is in the coaching chair, how did that happen?
Ros Toynbee (15:09.967)
Great question. So I was brought in to introduce, well to train managers in how to do a new performance management cycle. And underpinning all of that was a coach approach, but I was aware that we had managers who were at very different ends of the kind of directive, non -directive spectrum and what their understanding of coaching was. also had
about 24 coaches who had been trained a couple of years before I joined and I discovered this cohort. I had a chat with them and said, are you coaching? And a couple of them were in informal ways or with their teams if they were managers and a lot were not. And I thought, this is a real shame. We’ve got an organization who’s invested in this. Presumably at the time it happened, there were plans to build a coaching service.
Some people have been able to kind of apply for coaching, there was no kind of rigor or structure to it. And I knew coming from the BBC that actually having some structures really important to make sure that you’ve got up skilled coaches who provide a certain quality of coaching, that the applications process is fair.
and that we can support our coaches going forward in their community and in their ongoing journey. yes, I saw there was this opportunity and myself and another colleague, Lisa, we went to our head of people and we said, look, we have this opportunity here. We would love to reinvigorate this coaching service and really turn it into something that allows everybody offcom the opportunity to have.
this kind of development and we got a yes. And once we got the yes, there was kind of no stopping me. And Charlie, you will know because you had already trained some of those coaches from the previous years. So you and I had a conversation about how could we make this happen? And you gave me a couple of ideas and I had a couple of ideas from back at the BBC and I’d still maintained those connections. And I also had some other ideas about how I wanted to
Ros Toynbee (17:25.88)
tailor it for this organization, knowing what I’d known by that point, because I was about a year and a half in by that point, about how the management work, how the performance management cycle works, the culture we were trying to create and so on. So that was really the beginning of it. So having some ideas, thrashing them out and just making them real and a fair amount of work to do that.
Charlie (17:51.934)
think a fair amount is a slight understatement, isn’t it? Goodness me. So to summarize that and to paint a picture, you identify this opportunity. You see there’s a lot of coaches who’ve been trained, but who aren’t really getting coaching contracts. And that’s very common. Lots of organizations end up with that. We train the coaches, we look to put a system in place, and it’s really hard. You get management support.
Ros Toynbee (17:54.424)
you
Charlie (18:15.824)
you identify that coaching can be really useful and beneficial. So you’ve got all of the, like if you like the building blocks in place, but you had to build it, you had to put it together. So let’s talk a bit about that. You’ve got your coaches already, you’ve got your first cohort of coaches. Then who else? How did you start putting your pool together of internal coaches?
Ros Toynbee (18:38.06)
Yeah, so I’m so myself and Lisa. We interviewed. We made a list of all the coaches we interviewed each one of them with a new offer. We’re saying we’re going to relaunch the service. We’re going to make coaching available to everybody, but this is going to require a few things from you. It’s going to be a time commitment and it’s going to be a great development opportunity for you as well. But you’re going to be doing this over and above your day job and will need, for example, a minimum of two.
to coaches that you’re working with at any one time in order to be able to really kind of make this work and ensure that everybody’s continuing to coach and upskilling themselves. We also want to introduce supervision as well in order to keep us all honest and make sure we’re acting in an ethical way. And so we’re looking at probably, know, for the first month we’re going to have upskilling workshops. You’re going to have peer supervision. You’re going to be coaching.
There is a time commitment to this and you’re going to need your manager’s endorsement with all of this as well. So we had an honest conversation and for some of them it was a case of, well, you know, I really enjoy the coaching qualification and I kind of try to coach where I can, but I recognize this as a commitment too far for me and I can’t do it. And we’re like, that’s fine. That’s absolutely fine. But then we had a group of people who said, you know what? I’ve been waiting for this.
and I’m really excited by this and I want to be a part of it. And so we made a short list. And then there were a couple of people who in my role, this is why I’m saying, you you have the coaching hat on, you have the leadership development hat on. So they had been people that I had trained or I’d sat in on other senior leadership meetings or whatever. And I just noticed there was something about them and I’d followed up with them. And I said to them, I don’t suppose you’ve got any coaching background, do you? And of course I discovered.
that they had done quite serious coaching qualifications in previous organizations. So then I made a little list of them and I had interviews with them and said, look, this is what I’m trying to do and are you in? And they said, yes. So that gave me my pool of coaches. So that was tremendous. That’s how we began identifying who would be in that pool.
Charlie (20:51.95)
And I love the rigour around that, mean the gentleness around it, but also that it’s really clear. Don’t sign up to this unless you’ve got your manager support and you know it’s going to be hard work. And you’re right, you’ve flushed out the people who really love their coaching, don’t you? I that’s very obvious from all the work we’ve got going. And I do see that you’re drip -feeding more people in, we? We train a couple more, a couple more people leave, it’s a big organisation. One of the things I’d love you to tell the listener about is the…
the roles, the type of roles that day jobs that these people have. The reason I ask this is because often in organisations I end up training people who are in people jobs, know, learning and development people or HR people or in schools, senior leaders or pastoral people. And when I speak to Ofcom people, I’m really struck that most people I don’t even understand their job titles, let alone what their roles are. So it seems really, really diverse in terms of what their jobs are.
Could you just share with everyone a bit about that?
Ros Toynbee (21:53.868)
You’re right, it’s very easy to just train up people who are in learning and development or in HR, but Ofcom was different right from the start. So we have quite senior people in finance, so I think most people understand about accountancy and they look after the figures for us. Spectrum, so I could go into all the technicalities here, but I won’t. procurement is another area as well. we’ve got, yes, we’ve got.
We’ve got managers, we’ve got heads of department. We also had a couple of people who weren’t managers as well. And when I’m honest, when I first started out at the BBC, I wasn’t a manager either. But that was something that I added to my suite of skills. So most of the people that we are coaching are managers, but not everybody is.
Charlie (22:44.487)
And I think you, like me, believe in the potential for this to be a skill that can be learned, right? And it’s a skill that if you apply yourself, you can get good at it, even if your role hasn’t been in that traditional, like you say, learning and development mode.
Ros Toynbee (23:01.95)
Absolutely. for the managers themselves, I think it’s a critical part of how you lead. know, Harvard Business Review has written an article with the same title on it that, how, you know, how you coach is how you lead or how you lead is how you coach or something like that. to me, the two are intertwined because we’re dealing with human beings and human beings are.
curvy, aren’t they? sort of, you know, we have different motivations. We are, we’re driven by our emotions. We think we’re logical creatures and we’re not. And we can know how to do something and still not be doing it. And so as a manager, you’re responsible for performance and it’s, know, you are a curious person. I think you’ve got have curiosity. Some people don’t have curiosity, but I think you do need to be curious about people. I think you need to have…
Ros Toynbee (23:53.107)
a lot of developing people as well. But if you start there, then you can begin to build the listening skills, the questioning skills and the other skills that you need to be a good coach, whether that’s being a manager as coach or whether it’s being a coach with a capital C.
Charlie (24:09.97)
And it definitely feels like this is a modern way of managing a team or leading an organization. And I love the fact that you start with listening. I often say that no one ever complained about their boss saying, wish they would stop listening. They just listen too much.
Charlie (24:28.528)
not a thing. So we’ve got a really great sense of what you’ve done to get your coaches trained to make sure that they’re buying into this so they’ve got the time and the commitment. Let’s talk about the client if you like and I use that word euphemistically, the coachee. So at Ofcom who gets coaching? Who gets the opportunity to be coached?
Ros Toynbee (24:46.904)
So everybody gets the opportunity to be coached, but the most senior people, have the option to go for external coaching. We offer internal coaching from the very lowest level, which is the administrative level. we’ve got administrative administration. We’ve got associate, senior associate and principals. So for the first four levels, they can apply for coaching. And I introduced a more rigorous coaching criteria.
and an application form which would help those of us assessing whether there was a genuine coaching need and whether this person would be suitable for coaching. Because previously when we had requests for coaching, it was all over the place, Charlie. We had people just choosing external coaches because they’d heard about them, but that person maybe wasn’t accredited. I didn’t recognise their training. I didn’t know if we’re going to get any return investment or
you quality within that. Or they were asking for things which, you know, could have actually have been met through therapy. You know, we’ve got a good employee assistance program or they should have been doing training, but they were we were spending money on coaching and they should have been doing the course for us. And then the manager should have been helping them to embed the course. And then, you know, if was still a requirement then to use coaching. So I think coaching, I think everyone can benefit from coaching.
However, there’s a time and place where coaching can really accelerate the development and potential of a person. So I see my role as being able to both kind of educate managers and colleagues who might apply for coaching, but also make sure that we’re using a resource in the way where it’s going to make the greatest difference.
Charlie (26:31.386)
So if I work for Ofcom, I don’t have to talk to my friends or Google search or try and find a coach or take a recommendation. I can come to a centralized part of the organization or to my line manager and say, I’ve heard that coaching could be really helpful for my career. Can I sign up? And that’s my process. That’s what works.
Ros Toynbee (26:53.962)
Yeah, we have information on the Internet. We have a frequently asked questions. We have an application form. You have a conversation with your manager and then we take it from there.
Charlie (27:05.698)
And the criteria, I mean, you’ve talked about some people might present a coaching need, but actually it’s more of a therapeutic need. How much do you sort of ring fence and say, look, come and have coaching on ABC topics, but not DEF topics? How clear is that?
Ros Toynbee (27:20.366)
Yeah, so we would expect if somebody was applying for coaching, it was because maybe they’ve got some feedback on their leadership style and they wanted to improve that. Maybe it’s to develop more of a coach approach. Maybe they needed to influence better. They were presenting a lot at senior boards and needed to be more powerful in the way that they were advocating for the things they’re advocating for. We have a
Ofcom gets a lot of introverts, as you would expect. We do lot of analysis and investigation and we come up with recommendations. There’s lots of writing to do. So we get lots of people who are naturally quite introverted, but maybe feel less confident about speaking up, particularly in front of senior people. presenting to the board being that example there. We’ve got some people who need support with identifying what the next career step is.
Ros Toynbee (28:13.46)
So what we see is that you share a development need that is tied to your work. That’s the magic thing there. So you can’t just say, I to become a bit more confident. You would say, I want to become more confident in speaking up in meetings and also in facilitating other people to bring their voice into the room because I see it’s important for us to innovate. So something that ties that personal
development need is to the impact it’s going to have for your work or for the team or for the organization. And as I said, if it’s something that we’ve got a course for and it makes sense to start there. So somebody says, well, I’m interested in becoming a manager someday, but they’re not doing any management. We would say, well, we’ve got a future leader collection of learning online. Go off and do that. You can do how we lead it off com, which is our first line manager training.
Have you thought about maybe taking on supervising a graduate or an apprentice, getting some experience that way? Or let’s look at, you know, talk to your CPM about other ways that you can be getting that kind of experience so that you can test the waters, see if it’s something of interest to you. And then there’s other development we can do off the back of that. Now, if somebody was going into a brand new job and they were making that step up, they had done all the training, but maybe, you know, was a big…
project going on that was kind of high visibility and when there lots of moving parts to it and just needing that extra support, then coaching could also be a really useful support there as well. So yes, we don’t we don’t say right, you know, you can get coaching on this, but not coaching on that. It’s much more about are you open? Also, are you open to coaching? know, will you sit in a room with me and think, will you do the hard work?
Ros Toynbee (30:07.894)
of thinking because I’m sounding bored really. I’ll be listening to you and I’ll be asking questions. I’ll be getting curious about how you are relating to this challenge. But you’re the one who’s going to do the thinking and you’re going to come up with your own ideas and you’re the one who’s going to have to actually do the work of implementing those ideas and getting better. Because frankly, anything else is just a nice coffee. We’re not actually making any change. And that is at the heart of coaching is about creating behavioral change. So
Charlie (30:28.774)
Yes.
Ros Toynbee (30:36.46)
Yeah, if I sense that somebody is doing this just because, this looks like a trendy new thing to do, or even that a manager is thinking, I’m worried about retaining this person. I know what I’ll do. I’ll just give them some coaching as if that’s going to be the magic bullet. Well, you and I know that sometimes you coach somebody and they realize, I’m in the wrong job and it’s time for me to go and they might not stay in the So we have to make sure, as I said, that we are
Charlie (31:10.14)
Thank you so much. So if anyone out there is listening is involved in setting up a coaching program and particularly for matching coaches and coachees, it’d be really worth just going back and listening to all of that answer again because there’s so much in what Rose says. And if I’m gonna summarize a bit, there’s the idea that there’s a dotted line between professional development and personal development there. There needs to be an impact on the job. There wants to be some type of…
motivation and benefit that it is coaching, it’s not mentoring, it’s not guidance and advice, so people need to be open to reflection. And within all of that, although I think you’re listing lots of even better things to work on, I think people can also turn up in coaching here with their strengths and the things that they’re good at, they wanna get even better at. So how great to work at Ofcom and to have all of this.
coaching opportunities. This year has been the launch of it hasn’t it, if you like the relaunch and how has it gone? How the advertising, the offering coaching out there, you how has it all gone?
Ros Toynbee (32:16.398)
Well, I have to admit I was a little bit nervous to begin with Charlie because I had no idea whether the demand would meet supply. So all I knew is I had 17 coaches times two that gave me the number of engagements I had. What would happen if we got 150 applications and we had to let a lot of people down? What would happen then?
So that was partly why I was very clear about the criteria and educating our managers as to who to put forward. But don’t worry, if you get it wrong, it’s also fine because we’ll come back to you and have a conversation and say, well, not this right now, but maybe this would be right in six months time, or why don’t you put them on this course? And we got exactly the right number of people in the end. So we went through a calibration process with the HR business partners. So the applications came in.
Myself and Lisa on the coaching team, looked at it. The business partners did as well. Of course, they are close to the given development needs within the groups that they serve. And together we would talk about, let’s, you know, who do we approve? Who do we decline? Who do we put on the waiting list? Who do we maybe defer as well? And that itself was a really useful process because
None of us have all the information, know, it’s proverbial kind of balloon where I’m seeing the pink stripe and someone else is seeing the green stripe and somebody else is seeing maybe, you know, the yellow stripe. And so I’ll be looking at some day through the lens of the application, but the business partner might be aware that there’s been certain issues and go, yeah, this person really does need this coaching at this time. And so we can make a decision that the business feels congruent with.
and which we can support going forwards. So that was how we do it. There was a lot of consultation with the business partners about how will we do this process. We decided two cohorts a year. We would time them to sit with what we call our kickstart conversations, which is where we look ahead, what are the deliverables and goals for the year, and also at the career conversation point, because those are natural points where
Ros Toynbee (34:24.322)
the question of coaching might come up as, okay, so here are your kickstart goals. Let’s talk about whether coaching or something else is going to support you to deliver on those or we’ve had a career conversation. It sounds like you need a little bit more time and expertise and that coach to really support you to think through what your next steps might be. How about coaching? So that’s that was how I envisaged it. But yes, we’ve got the right number of people.
We’re doing a second cohort in November, December time. We’re opening up applications for that. So ask me that question again and I’ll see if we get oversubscribed, undersubscribed or what happens this year.
Charlie (35:03.894)
Well and I’m so glad you gave all of that detail because when we have coaches and we have people who might want coaching, the easiest way isn’t it is just to send out the list and say choose your coach and off you go. But you’re putting this mechanism in the middle of assessing and allocating and matching and making sure that people are the right
the right fit which I think gives our coaches the best opportunity for success rather than them ending up with someone who maybe you know isn’t at the moment in the right place for their coaching. I’m curious about a couple of things. One is about what you’ve heard early days, know, the coaches have just got going, they’ve started having their first contracting and so on in their first sessions. What are you noticing about the coaches coming back and now actually having been giving people to coach?
Ros Toynbee (35:56.298)
really positive. And I think again, it’s about being systematic to get them to this point. We gave them the upskill refresher training. We put in place coach community sessions where we told them this is what’s coming up. This is how it’s going to work. What are your questions? And we started, as you know, with the peer review sessions, which are the supervision, the group supervision training. So there’s
Charlie (35:57.628)
Meh
Ros Toynbee (36:22.156)
And also that I put together protocol documents so that whether you’ve been trained with Love Your Coaching or you’ve been trained somewhere else, that everybody was doing their chemistry sessions in a similar way. There three ways in a similar way and the engagement itself in a similar way. So in the last peer review session, obviously I was sitting in on that and it was really good when we were talking about, what’s working well, what’s working less well, that actually our coaches are
feeling well supported with this, that they are excited to be doing this, that they feel equipped to do it, that their confidence is back up there again and that’s just really nice to see. So it’s all been worth it.
Charlie (37:08.85)
Yeah, and I’m certainly seeing lots of appreciation by the coaches for all the work that you’ve done, Paul. So you’re right, tapping back into that, yes, lots of them have kept their coaching up, others haven’t because they have very busy roles. So, and I’m glad the way that you’re explaining it, because I’m sure it’s very clear to people who sign up for coaching that…
Even though it’s an internal coach, confidentiality is assured, they don’t have to worry, they’re in the hands of someone who knows how to work professionally and that’s a big deal, isn’t it?
Ros Toynbee (37:39.126)
Absolutely. know, if they know that they’re ILM five or ILM seven qualified that, you know, that’s an external qualification. And, you know, maybe somewhere down the line, we might go for accreditation as well. But every coach has put together a little bio so that when we are and I didn’t explain this, but Lisa and I would match the coaches with coaches. We would think really carefully, right, this person’s in spectrum. We’re not going to we’re not going to put them with somebody in the same group. We’re going to put them with
Charlie (37:54.972)
Yes.
Ros Toynbee (38:07.71)
maybe somebody in economics or in a different group, who would have worked with each other before? So we were making sure there’s no conflicts of interest that, although you and I know the conversation is confidential, it feels more confidential if it’s happening outside of that group. So there was a lot of thought to that. And then as a belt and braces, we’d send an email out to the coach before doing the introduction email saying, we’re thinking of pairing you with this individual. Is there any conflict of interest?
Charlie (38:21.457)
Mm.
Peace.
Ros Toynbee (38:37.398)
any reason why I don’t want to work with this person, just let us know that’s absolutely fine. And in that way, we’re ensuring that people feel that there’s with somebody who’s credible. And then that chemistry session, of course, is so important in building that rapport and just really understanding, give me a little bit of context behind your application form. How’s it going with the job? And tell me a bit more about these challenges that you’re having. And then that contracting piece, as you and I know, is so important.
Have you had coaching before? What was your experience of that? You know, have you had mentoring before? What are you expecting from our time together? It just creates that level of certainty for the coachees. Okay, even if they’ve not done it before, they’re not sure exactly how it’s going to work. Because until you properly coach you, don’t really know how it’s going to work. But there’s a sense that there’s a process. This person knows what they’re doing. I am in safe hands. I am safe.
Charlie (39:12.978)
Bye.
Ros Toynbee (39:34.658)
And that’s really, really important to us.
Charlie (39:37.202)
Yeah, and you can’t underestimate that safety and I think particularly with internal coaching because of the fact that you are in the same building, you know the same people and so on and however professional people are, people worry, right, don’t they? So if I think, you’ve worked a lot through 2023 to put this into place and now we’re, as you and I speaking, towards the end of 2024 and we’ve got going really well with this.
this first cohort. Let’s fast forward, let’s imagine the end of 2025. We’ve had a few cycles, lots of coaching hours gone on, the coaches working, more coaches qualified. If you’re going to survey your Ofcom coaching kingdom, what would you like to see?
Ros Toynbee (40:22.594)
I want to, I want to more than seeing, I want to hear our coachees talking to their managers, talking to the colleagues on their team and saying, I got coaching and it’s changed me. It changes the way that I think about things. It changes the way that I do things. I’m happier. My wellbeing is better. Best thing I ever did. And
collecting those case studies and for those case studies for people to talk and for word to spread that like coaching is a good thing. I want, know, despite what I’ve said, I want demand to increase, but I also, you know, I’m mindful that we need to do that in a way that, you know, is aligned with the size of organization and, you know, how many people we can train reasonably in any given year as well.
So that’s the first thing is people raving about coaching and saying, I’ve had this, you know, this great experience. And you and I know that every, you know, not every coaching session is this sort of great aha moment or transformational moment, but there is something about knowing that you’ve got that coaching time in the diary and somebody to listen to you, somebody to really help you think and have new thoughts and see yourself differently.
feel able to do things that were outside of your comfort zone. That is the real power of coaching. So that would be the first thing. The second thing would be managers saying, do you know what? I thought it was coaching, Ross, but I don’t think I am. Can I do your coach training? Because I’m realizing there’s a gap for me. Or I did some training a while back, but I haven’t been using it. And I’ve just been slipping into mentoring mode the whole time. And I know there’s a time and place for mentoring, but I shouldn’t be doing it all the time.
So, know, can we kind of do that course and for this to kind of be a virtuous circle because for me it’s when you are really well coached that’s when you start realizing, I can coach myself, I can begin to coach other people, I can sit in team meetings.
Ros Toynbee (42:38.35)
And instead of always thinking, gosh, I’ve got to contribute something by saying something interesting that will wow everybody. Actually, I can be reading the room. I can be noticing that not everybody is in agreement here. I can be contributing in team meetings in different ways. And so I would hope that by the end of 2025, we’ve got people raving about coaching, more demand for coaching, managers wanting coaching, and maybe further on down the line.
building that coaching cultures, foundations more and more. And I’m under no illusions about how long it takes. You know, I was coaching at the BBC for four and a half years. We did not have a coaching culture by that point, but we had gone a long way towards that being the way that we do stuff around here. So that would be my vision. That would be my dream.
Charlie (43:32.182)
How wonderful and how wonderful to speak it out and I hope that anyone who’s listening to this, whether possibly your seniors at Ofcom, let’s really hope they’re listening and hearing that, but also other organisations, you’re right, it takes time and the bigger the organisation, probably the longer time, but there’s no doubt the passion and the care and enthusiasm for coaching runs through you and I think Ofcom is massively lucky to have you leading up this project with Lisa and others. It’s great, it’s wonderful, wonderful to hear.
Last question to bring it back to you personally, I like to ask people at the end, is it about coaching that you love? But that’s really all you’ve been saying for the last 35 minutes. Different guises about loving coaching for others. So to finish off, what does it mean to you? 23 years ago, what has this coaching experience for you seeing it with others, having it as such an integral part of your life? In a one minute summary, what’s it meant to you?
Ros Toynbee (44:29.314)
That’s hard, Charlie. It gave me a whole new career direction. It gave me a new way of seeing the world. It gave me a passion and an energy for something, something that I could go as a deep and wide with and always find fascinating. It’s given me a community which is worldwide. I’ve done lots of different trainings and when I first cut my teeth in coaching, I alluded to a
Charlie (44:30.223)
Alright.
Ros Toynbee (44:58.413)
a training course I did outside of the BBC, which was based in the States. And it was pre Skype, pre Zoom. It was all done in long distance phone calls. And I learned how to coach on the phone before coaching face to face. And I still have, like I have 23 year old friendships from that first course that I did. And I don’t know, there’s something about coaching that draws a particular type of person who is generous and wise.
And sometimes I sit down and have conversations with other coaches at Ofcom and just say, I’m going to think this thing through. And we just have conversation for five minutes. It’s not an hour long coaching session, but they understand the power of listening. They understand the power of questions. And I come away going, yeah, that’s it. That’s what I need to do. coaching is just so part of me.
And I just want it to become part of as many people as will take up the challenge.
Charlie (45:59.814)
Thank you so much for sharing that and I do get it was I saved the really challenge question until the end. I’m sorry about that. If listeners, if you’re not inspired by what Ros has been telling us today about coaching and getting coaching going in an organization, I’m not sure what would inspire anyone. It’s wonderful. I’ve already known lots of this stuff, but I’ve learned loads of new things and it is difficult and it is fiddly and and the intentionality and the effort that Ros and her team have put into making coaching happening is wonderful. We will
Over the years, I think lots will be published, lots will be written. These will become case studies, these will become examples and models of one way to make this happen. Ross, thank you so much for sharing your personal experience and your coaching experience, and it’s been a real delight having you on today. It’s a real pleasure. And listeners, enjoy the rest of your day, enjoy the rest of your week. Do, as ever, look at show notes, look at the information you’ll find there. Have a great week, and happy coaching.
Ros Toynbee (46:46.254)
Thank you.
About Charlie:
I’m Charlie Warshawski, a UK based coach, coach trainer and supervisor. Coaching has been my thing since 2007 and I’ve been keen to start this podcast, to help fellow coaches navigate the difficulties of running a coaching business or practice. Most of my coaching takes place in education and I love coaching school leaders. And most of the supervision I do is with coaches who are starting their coaching practice.
Since 2019 I’ve been supporting new and experienced coaches with resources to help them grow their business – our free The Sustainable Coach programme is available to all coaches, and over 200 coaches have accessed these resources.
Away from coaching, four children, three pets, a poor table tennis and cycling schedule and a thirst for language learning all keep me busy.
Love Your Coaching Resources:
- Visit our website
- Learn more about our courses and coaching qualifications
- Contacts: charlie@loveyourcoaching.com | hello@loveyourcoaching.com| 01306 264026 | 0774 8515189
Rate and Review the Podcast:
If you enjoyed this episode of The Love Your Coaching Podcast, please take a moment to rate and review it on Spotify or Apple Podcasts. Your feedback really helps more coaches find the show and join our growing community of reflective practitioners.
Don’t Miss the Next Episode!
Be notified when new episodes are released — sign up for our free newsletter to receive coaching insights, episode updates, and learning tips straight to your inbox.