In this episode, Charlie meets Emma and Rachel, two school leaders who have experienced the benefit of coaching. They work in a school in Berkshire and have been involved in a coaching programme for some time, so have some insightful comments and opinions. Main topics discussed in this episode:
Emma and Rachel were coached by our own Sue Webb, who is a former head teacher and a very experienced coach. They were very keen to explain and describe their own coaching experience in some detail. What it’s like, how it feels, and what benefits they are getting from the coaching.
We talked about some of the important areas for coachees, such as:
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Having the space to come up with their own thoughts and ideas
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The trusted relationship with their coach
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The warmth and care shown
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How useful coaching is for them as school leaders
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And of course, the fact that they aren’t getting any advice!
It was a joyful conversation, and one that made me very proud. Both of Sue, and of coaching in general.
About our guests
Assistant Head for Inclusion
Year 2 Team Leader and Class Teacher
Rachel Gregg
“I have been in education for 22 years and have had several different roles. This is my first role as part of the Senior Leadership Team in my school and I have thoroughly valued my coaching sessions as they have taught me a lot about myself as well as helping me to become better at my job”
Emma Bradshaw
“I have been teaching for over 20 years and have taught in the UK and Internationally including countries such as Saudi Arabia, Egypt and Romania. I love going to the coaching sessions every half term at my school as they help with my growth as a person and a professional. Also knowing that I have the answers within me is a very powerful skill to possess”.
Useful Links From This Episode:
Transcript:
Charlie Warshawski (00:01.946)
Hello fellow coaches. Hope you’re having a good week and I hope that all is going well. This is the last thing pretty well that I’m doing on a Friday afternoon in the second week in December. And we’re certainly getting a little bit of that end of year feeling going on. I’ve had a good day today. A fellow coach and I had a really interesting conversation discussing the elephant in the room and how hard it is to be able to notice it and to name it without sounding like we’re being too challenging.
What about you? What have you been doing today? Have you been thinking about your coaching? Have you reflected on a coaching skill or two? I do hope you have done so. Today, I’m really excited because we’ve got a very, very different episode. Firstly, we’ve got two people here, which is a stretch for a small screen. So I just want to say welcome to Rachel and Emma. Hi, both of you. How are you doing?
Rachel And Emma (00:52.558)
Hi, pleased to meet you. Going well, thank you. Hi, yeah, yeah, good to see you, thank you.
Charlie Warshawski (00:55.312)
Good to talk to you. Good to, I’m really pleased. So Rachel and Emma, Rachel Gregg, Emma Bradshaw, they both work in a school. They work in a school in Berkshire and they are here today. The first people on our platform who are not coaches, but they are coachees. And I don’t know about you all fellow coaches, but how often do we ever hear the voice of the coachee? Of course we hear it all the time.
coaching them, but, out here in public, you know, and I think that one of the one of the missing voices is the coachee talking about their experience, you know, we can, of course, get testimonials and read those sort of things. But having a having a good half hour or so listen to coachees talking about their experience of being coached, I think it’s something that can really benefit from us all. So get a cup of tea.
Buckle in and let’s start talking. So firstly, let’s bring Rachel and Emma into the room. can you just give her, in classic icebreaker style, a bit of a 30 seconds, who each of you are, where you work, maybe how long you’ve been doing your job. Emma, do you want to just run a kickoff?
Rachel And Emma (02:04.694)
Okay, thank you. My name is Emma. I’m a year two lead at the moment and I’m also a year two teacher. I’ve been teaching for over 20 years internationally and in the UK and Ireland. Yeah, that’s me. My name is Rachel. I am part of the senior leadership team here. I am the assistant head for inclusion, Senco, and it’s my first role as a senior leader.
Charlie Warshawski (02:21.648)
Thank you.
Rachel And Emma (02:33.482)
I’ve been teaching like Emma over 20 years. I’ve had a variety of different posts from year five teacher to music teacher to head of year and for the last 10 years or so have been a Senco in secondary schools, middle school and also now in a primary school. It’s my first actual primary school that I’ve worked in since I started my teaching career.
Charlie Warshawski (02:57.424)
Well, that’s so interesting, isn’t it? well, coaches who are listening who aren’t in education might not know most teachers stick to one phase, don’t they? Mostly tend to be either in primary or in secondary. So what’s it like? What’s it been like being through all of the phases for you?
Rachel And Emma (03:13.568)
It’s been a real eye-opener, I have to say. I’ve never worked with children beyond or below year four, actually. And I’ve worked in secondary schools all the way up to sixth form. So I think for me, it’s been quite an eye-opener, especially with the early years. I’ve never encountered reception children. And they are very interesting. And in terms of my role, identification of need, it’s…
quite obvious in the sense that, you know, they do express their needs through biting, kicking, all that far more physical than the older children do. So yeah, it’s been, it’s been really amazing, actually, I have to say.
Charlie Warshawski (03:54.244)
Wow, how interesting. And I love the word interesting. It’s a very enigmatic word to describe. My wife, my wife’s a teacher and she often uses the word pickle. That covers many, many, many bases, doesn’t it? seems to be. And Emma, what about you? So 20 years international, a variety of things that you must have seen in different countries, different contexts. What’s that like?
Rachel And Emma (04:00.174)
really easy.
Rachel And Emma (04:19.146)
Yeah, no, it’s been really good. get different demographics of children in different countries and different classes. yeah, it’s an eye-opener. Different cultures, different beliefs coming into the room with the classroom. yeah, you’ve got a lot of languages as well. EAL is, you know, they want them to be in the British schools, but they’ve got EAL issues and they don’t speak.
hardly any English, so it’s trying to learn a little bit of their language as well so that you have that a bit of communication with parents and the children when they come in. I’m basically key stage one, so I do get the little ones coming in. So they’re very loving and friendly, most of them. You do have the old pickle. But yeah, so it’s very interesting. It’s really rewarding job actually.
Charlie Warshawski (05:08.687)
Yes, yeah. And I think, you know, those who work in education understand that and understand the, you know, the commitment and the discretionary effort. I think I always think that those who work outside of education, they’re either, they’re quite disbelieving on that. I don’t know how you can do that is the thing that so often people say to teachers, isn’t it?
Rachel And Emma (05:28.6)
Yeah, that’s true.
Charlie Warshawski (05:30.169)
So we will talk in a moment about coaching, specifically the coaching that I know you’ve been involved with, I’m really interested in each of you 20 years in education. When have you seen coaching pop up in your various schools? Have you seen it a lot? Have you seen it a bit? Is it around or what have you noticed before this particular bit?
Rachel And Emma (05:50.223)
From my point of view, I’ve never been coached at all. I’ve never worked in a school where there’s been coaching to my knowledge. If there has been, it’s never impacted me at all. I’ve never been involved. So this has actually been my first experience of coaching. And I started sessions with my coach pretty much as soon as I started at Sipanum. So I’ve had sessions over the last three years.
And yeah, but prior to that there hadn’t been anything from that perspective for me. So I’ve been quite fortunate to be involved now.
Charlie Warshawski (06:27.791)
That is interesting. It’s a mixed bag out there. You know, some people trip across it in every school and other people, yeah, 20 years and not at all. What about you, Emma? What have you seen in coaching before this?
Rachel And Emma (06:37.598)
Yeah, and when I was working in Jeddah in Saudi Arabia, the head teacher there was really into coaching. So he brought it in for all his staff, so all the teachers and all the SLT. And we followed, I think it was John Hattie. So we got a book on him and he brought speakers out to Jeddah, which was really good. And they helped us to coach and they helped us to talk through things to help.
help all the staff there. So I have had coaching before but it was really interesting that other schools have never heard of it and a lot of schools in the UK have never done it. This is the first school in the UK in Sippingen that really values this strategy for their staff.
Charlie Warshawski (07:25.133)
Yes, yes. Well, it is interesting. know, I’ve been involved in coaching in schools for nearly 20 years. And what we see is some schools really invest heavily in it. And there’s lots of coaching and people get trained to be coaches. Some schools, it just completely bypasses some schools, lots of schools at the moment, I think are quite heavily engaged in instructional coaching, which, as you know, is a is is a sort of a blended approach involving feedback and lesson observations and all of that. Okay. So so this was quite new to you.
than for both of you. And just maybe give everyone a bit of a sense of what the offer was. So for you, did you have to apply for it, or was it given to you, or how did it work?
Rachel And Emma (08:08.014)
No, our head’s really good and she just said, I’ve got Sue coming in. Do you want a chance to talk to her? And it was a really about, it was at a crossroads really for my career. So I came to the school as just an ordinary classroom teacher and there was an opportunity to move up into middle leadership. So I was sort of him in hand and my head teacher was like, look, I’ve got Sue coming in.
why don’t you go and discuss it with her and talk it through with her? And then I moved into actually that job role. And for us, it’s just really good that she comes in three times, three or four times a year. And it’s just our time to just talk to her freely about what’s bothering us or what we’ve come across and how we can improve it.
Charlie Warshawski (09:01.66)
So you had the invitation, right? So, yeah. And can I just say, I don’t think there is such a thing as an ordinary classroom teacher. I don’t think that they exist.
Rachel And Emma (09:04.224)
Yes, absolutely.
Charlie Warshawski (09:12.847)
I’ve never met one of them, goodness. And Rachel, what about you? When you brought it into SLT, did it come to you automatically? Is that how it worked?
Rachel And Emma (09:22.634)
Yes, I suppose it was a bit like that. It was an invitation, but it was more in a kind of, I think this would be a really good opportunity for you. Here’s the date and time of your first session. So it was something that our head teacher really values. She wants to sort of upskill the staff in the best way possible. And she has known Sue for a long time. I believe they worked together previously, so they’ve known each other a long time.
and she really values Sue’s work. So it’s a very unique opportunity for us all. As Emma says, the sessions are very much led by us. We can talk about whatever we want. And yeah, so it wasn’t so much of an invitation, more of a, is your date and time, here’s your first session. It’s been made possible for you to go to it, which I’ve really valued.
Charlie Warshawski (10:14.703)
Right. And we’ll come back to that because in some terms that sounds like being sent for coaching, doesn’t it? it’s not at all in that way. It’s not at all in that negative way.
Rachel And Emma (10:25.406)
No, not at all. In terms of upskilling me, especially seeing as I hadn’t been a senior leader before, and with that comes lots of different pressures, it’s more making me into a better leader in order to move the school forward on its positive journey.
Charlie Warshawski (10:43.151)
Yeah. Yeah. So there’s a lot of positive language in there and that’s really important. And for coaches listening, you know, we will, we will make an episode and talk about the challenge of when you have what we call sponsored coaching, when there is a third party involved, you know, whether it’s a head teacher or HR person or someone else. Let, let for the audience, let me bring Sue into the room a little bit. So Sue, Sue Webb, she’s, she’s my friend and my colleague. She works with us here at Love Your Coaching and she,
She’s a very skilled, experienced, qualified coach. She’s got a PCC, been coaching for over 10 years, and also she did the small thing of used to be a primary school head teacher. So she knows about schools a little bit. And what I do know about the work that she does at this school, as in lots of schools actually, is that she has an arrangement where she, it’s never sort of drop in, it’s always organized, but she is in school for two or three days on a bounce and.
There’s a series of appointments that people have signed up for in advance. So she knows who she’s seeing. And also I think that the coaches know who they’re going to get. So is that more or less how it works? OK. OK. Well, let’s take the starting point. Let’s because we’ve got coaches listening and and you know, they probably only ever hear from their coaches themselves. So let’s let’s give them the opportunity to hear what’s it like. when you knew you were coming for your first coaching session, you didn’t know Sue.
Rachel And Emma (11:44.514)
Yeah. Absolutely.
Charlie Warshawski (12:04.056)
You’d probably heard some lovely things about her, but also maybe not. Maybe you hadn’t heard anything. What was it like that first time, maybe the first 10, 20 minutes when it just started? Rachel, what was it like for you when it started?
Rachel And Emma (12:19.406)
I think Sue is quite miraculous in the sense that she’s the only person that I know that can do a session and get so much information out of you without really saying very much herself. And each time I had my first or my first appointment or any others, I’ve always been sort of thinking of what am I going to talk about? And the very first time I met her, it was slightly strange because the school I had come from,
was a completely different school to this one. And it was more sort of just outpouring of my feelings about changing jobs and the sort of uncertainty of moving to a senior leadership position. that wasn’t so much, it was more of a therapy session, should I say, than a coaching session. But from that point on, it was more understanding the sort of how coaching works and then coming to her with different scenarios of
of skills that I wanted to try and improve or scenarios that I perhaps needed to verbalise and talk through and tackle from different angles, like how would I approach a situation slightly differently or what could I say and how would I deal with those leadership skills of having those challenging conversations with people. That’s always been something that I…
openly would admit had been my sort of weaker area in terms of my leadership skills. So Sue has very much helped me tackle those situations head on, look at it from different perspectives, perhaps maybe talk through those scenarios and think of what could say if it was to happen again, and then set me up to feel sort of, I don’t know, fired up and ready to tackle those situations head on.
Charlie Warshawski (14:09.978)
So if we, I suppose I’m hearing like a bit of a route map there, you you walk into the coaching session knowing you’ve got a bit of an Achilles heel, let’s say around the challenging conversation, and then you walk out of it, you just, what language you just, you’re fired up. So fired up and ready. And does that happen just by sitting there and talking it through?
Rachel And Emma (14:32.803)
I suppose it does because you’ve got that hour to dedicate your thoughts to a particular skill or a particular scenario. So, and you know, she always has post-it notes and coloured pens. And so you could, if you wanted to sort of map out your whole scenario using coloured pens and, post-it notes and then have sort of, I don’t know, bullet point strategies for what to do when you’re not in that session, but.
you know, Sue will, will give me kind of guided questions, but again, like I said, say very, very little because she’s trying to sort of dig deep and really get to the crux of where the problem is and then come up with solutions. But, you know, I’m the one doing the talking, I’m the one guiding the session. And I have sat there and said to Sue, I actually don’t know what I want to talk to you about, but then all of a sudden a little spark then appears and I’ve just.
Rachel And Emma (15:30.287)
talk for 45 minutes nonstop. I sort of sit back in my chair at the end thinking, wow, where did all that come from? So I mean, it’s very, very rewarding sessions. And I feel that I’ve, I’ve learned a lot in my own like skills of being a leader, to be able to take on some of those situations of, you know, managing difficult conversations, or, you know, those sort of avoidable situations that I would have walked away from, sort of.
Charlie Warshawski (15:37.752)
Rachel And Emma (15:59.065)
Five years ago, I would never have put myself in that situation, but she’s given me that sort of empowerment to be able to do it.
Charlie Warshawski (16:06.041)
Well, if Sue were listening now and we’re not live, so she’s not, I’m sure she’d be dancing a little jig now because how wonderful to hear all of that. and I’d love to bottle everything you said there because it really encapsulates what great coaching is. You’ve worked it all out yourself. You’re talking about developing leadership skills, but this is not a leadership course, is it? There’s no slides being presented. You’re working it all.
all out yourself, so it’s wonderful. And you mentioned the Post-It notes and the flip chart and the Marks and Pencils. I’ve heard, and I think I might have even seen the famous Sue Wedd coaches handbag. Is that right? She got a handbag with a lot of stuff in it.
Rachel And Emma (16:44.237)
Yes, of course.
Charlie Warshawski (16:46.255)
What a thing, what a thing. Well, folks, I’m so appreciating all of this sharing. What we’re going to do is we’re going to take a break for just a minute or so. And coaches, when you’re listening, perhaps think about what it’s like for your coaches, know, the way that Rachel has just described it, when they have that first session, when they go from maybe being a little bit nervous, a little bit not sure what’s going to happen to them, realising that actually you’re giving them good time and good space to be able to work these things out. So see you in a little moment.
Charlie Warshawski (17:24.131)
So welcome back. I’m here still with Emma and Rachel, who have had the great experience of having lots of coaching over the last two or three years with my friend and colleague Sue Webb. And we’re hearing what the coachee experience is like. as Rachel did, Emma, what about you? When you first went into that room, you know, the first time you hadn’t met Sue, you knew there was coaching lined up for you. What was it like?
Rachel And Emma (17:50.029)
was really nervous to be honest because I don’t know, you just don’t know the person. So I don’t know what to expect. So when I walked in and I saw Sue and she had this lovely big smile on her face and she was so warm and friendly. She makes you just at home. I know she’s sitting in one of our classrooms and it’s still in school, but she just makes you.
forget about everything else that’s going on and you go into that space and it’s tranquil, it’s calm. And you can just sit there and take a moment and reflect. And it’s all about reflection, isn’t it really? as teachers, we do, we’re quite critical on our teaching, I think, and we all that could have been better, that could be better. But when I went in with Sue, she was just, I said to, I actually said the same as Rachel, I don’t know what to say. And she was like, Oh, well, and then she just
carried on a conversation and you end up just talk, talk, talk, talk, talk. And it’s amazing that you can solve your own problems when you don’t think you can in the moment of the busy, hectic, chaotic school day. And yes, she has her famous chocolate, little bowl of chocolate, which is really nice. You get to choose one of those, that’s her bonus. But she’s got her pens and she’s got little wooden dolls as well. So you can actually actually
out the scenario. I’ve used the wooden dolls and I’ve acted out the scenario and I’ve had, you know, as I’m a year leader I had the team and where would the team be and it’s really good just to see that, you know, and be taking a step back and looking at it from the outside in because when you’re in these issues or problems or scenarios you don’t really see the big picture and so that’s really lovely to see that.
And she listens, you just feel valued, you feel listened. And she, again, she doesn’t say much, you know, and I don’t think, I think a good coach doesn’t say much because you’re the one that’s, as a coachee, you’re the one that talks around and finds a solution within yourself. And that’s really empowering. I feel, and I do come out of the sessions, I must admit, exhausted.
Rachel And Emma (20:03.854)
I do come out brain weary and it’s usually my appointments first thing in the morning and I’ve got the rest of the day to teach. And you do come out exhausted, but it’s a good exhausted if you know what I mean, because you really feel like, yes, I’ve got to the bottom of this. I know what I’m doing. I know where to go next. And it’s just, and it’s just lovely. And when you go in the next time, when you see her, she remembers everything. She’s, know, and she’s obviously made notes of the previous session. She’s like, how are doing?
You know, it’s just really lovely. It’s a really lovely atmosphere and it’s such a worthwhile thing. think everybody needs to do it. To be coached and be a coachee just to help with their school life and their career.
Charlie Warshawski (20:41.241)
Yeah.
Charlie Warshawski (20:50.911)
Well, I’ll say something about that in a moment because it’s a really, really helpful point. And you’re describing so many good things. You’re describing strong coaching skills, that idea that she doesn’t offer advice, doesn’t give solutions, that you have the answers yourself, that she listens really carefully. And I’m really struck by the picture you paint, the picture of, even if it is a wonderful and lovely school, you’re right, it’s a busy and a hectic place. Every school is. And then you’ve got this calm, this very centered, very grounded
type of environment that you can be in in the coaching room. That must really strike you, mustn’t it? That it feels very different from the rest of your day.
Rachel And Emma (21:30.102)
Yeah, absolutely. And I think it’s very important. And I think Sue does that so easily, you know, and she makes that environment so, so easily for you to come in, because you could have had such a whirlwind of a morning with parents and, you know, staff members. And then you go in there and it’s just literally, wow, you know, your body just relaxes immediately and your brain slows down and no, just does it effortlessly. I’d love to know how she does that.
Charlie Warshawski (22:00.281)
Well, Sue will tell you, as I think as well every experienced coach, when we started, we weren’t like that. It does take time and does take years. I’ve worked with Sue now for nearly seven years, training more than coaching. And she’s grown and developed. in fact, I just looked at her CPD log yesterday for the last year. It’s like that. She continues to invest in her own.
professional development as a coach, you know, it’s not like she did one course years ago and she’s, she’s resting on her laurels. She’s really not, you know, and she, she, along with me, we have delivered 30 times a master’s level coaching qualification over the last five years. So she’s used to teaching coaching. So yeah, you’re right. She’s one of those people. She’s right at the top of this profession. It’s wonderful. And it’s great that you, have an opportunity to work with her. So there’s a couple of technical things I thought would be helpful for coaches to think about, you know, you’re,
You’re school leaders, you’re being coached by a former head teacher, and yet she signs up to not giving you advice. There is no advice in the coaching. What’s that like? Are you sometimes a bit naughty and ask her for bit of advice? What would you do, I bet you do.
Rachel And Emma (23:13.335)
Yeah.
Rachel And Emma (23:17.344)
Yeah, I am. find sometimes you just want somebody to tell you the answers, don’t you really? You just want the cheat sheet, as I would say. But she’s very good. just says she redirects it and ask, know, she might just say, you mentioned this. Go down that way. Go down that road. Talk to me a bit more about that, which is amazing. And so she’s very good. She’s very skilled at what she does. She’s amazing.
Yeah. that’s so good to…
Rachel And Emma (23:45.699)
For me, I would say she does try and like, say things like, how do you feel about that? Or can you tell me more about that, please? Because she’s trying to sort of peel the layers off your situation to really, like I’ve said already, dig down. I think what also helps is because I’m the Senko, she understands the pressures that, you know, certainly at the moment,
schools are facing with the children with special educational needs and the pressures with the local authorities. you know, I can kind of talk about that and know that she understands what that means because she’s been in schools, she’s been a headteacher, she knows how school works, you know, she obviously keeps close track on what’s going on in terms of the national picture. So, you know, I’ve got that sense that she is
totally aware of what is going on. when I can talk about specific challenges, I know full well that she knows what I’m talking about.
Charlie Warshawski (24:51.758)
Yes. Yeah. And I think, and actually it’s a, it’s a really good point for coaches to know because Sue, like lots of coaches doesn’t just coach, you know, as well as working with me, you know, she delivers mental health first aid training for an organization. She’s also still an assessor for early career teachers. So she’s in and out of schools and in and out of the classroom. And those things are important. Like financially coaches need to, we never pay our mortgage from coaching. That’s one thing, but also keeping up to date with other bits of our professional practice.
makes a really big difference. So that coach, if any coaches were listening and think, that advising is difficult, isn’t it? And I always want to give a bit of advice. And we hear this all the time in coaching. The idea, I think that someone like Sue and lots of, lots of coaches can do this is you can be really skillful and really knowledgeable about your coachee’s job. You know, she knows she’s been a teacher. she’s done all of this work.
but you can still coach them without giving them advice. And I think that that’s when you talk about how brilliant she is, that’s what’s brilliant. And I think that’s something we like to see in coaching that yeah, we might know our coachee’s context and know their job, but we can still carry on coaching. We don’t have to switch hats to mentoring, which is I think something generally in education, generally it hasn’t sort of, that hasn’t really appeared yet. So, but maybe in time.
So I’m wondering, I wanted to sort of come back from the coaching room a little bit. You you have this experience and you sit there as a coachee, you know what it feels like. This is, by the way, going to be a leading question, which Sue doesn’t do. How much do you think being a coachee is influencing you maybe when you’re in your one-to-ones? know, when you want to maybe do a bit more listening and a bit less talking. Have you noticed some of Sue’s approach rubbing off on you? You can say no, by the way, it’s fine.
Rachel And Emma (26:46.326)
I so. I definitely feel that I now don’t talk as much in those situations. I will say things like, you know, can you tell me more about that, please, to just try and, you know, learn more about whatever that situation might be in front of me. And I might do that both with not just with other adults, but with the children as well. If I’m trying to resolve a situation,
Rachel And Emma (27:14.766)
maybe from a behavioural point of view, I do allow the children to speak and then I don’t give my opinion, I’ll just take the facts and then process them a bit more. Whereas I think before, I don’t think I necessarily would have done that so much or at least been as conscious as I am now to do that.
Charlie Warshawski (27:33.646)
And do you like it? Do you find it’s impactful going that way?
Rachel And Emma (27:39.147)
Definitely, because I feel that the if it’s an adult situation, I mean, obviously, a child is going to talk anyway, but certainly with it with an adult, I feel that it makes them feel a bit more comfortable, especially if it’s a situation that has happened, maybe a disagreement between staff members or a particular course of action in the day that hasn’t gone the right way. And you’re trying to gather that information. I feel that by listening more and not having preconceived
opinions about the situation definitely makes the other person feel more relaxed and more prepared to share their information and their knowledge.
Charlie Warshawski (28:15.833)
So those challenging conversations you alluded to a bit earlier on, those ones as well, does that listening approach work well in them?
Rachel And Emma (28:24.458)
It does. And I think one of the things that I’ve learned to do, you know, through my coaching sessions is to script those situations. So I’ve got my own notes on how and how I can keep that conversation on track and be a bit more sort of, it has been reported that rather than sort of putting too much emotive language into it too, sort of just keeping it very factual, but also
distancing myself from the emotion side of things.
Charlie Warshawski (28:54.787)
Yes. Yeah. Yeah. Because it’s quite likely, it? Whether it’s a parent or a colleague, they bring in the emotion in and without, and no one ever wants to hear calm down because it just makes you angry. So, you using your listening and some questions as really important. Emma, what about you? Have you noticed some of these coaching approaches turning up?
Rachel And Emma (29:14.648)
Absolutely, it’s just the same as Rachel really. The listening really is effective with Bethany parents if they’ve come in and they’re annoyed or they’ve got a concern. Letting them speak first and just taking it all in and just listening to what they’re saying does have a big impact on any meeting. Also the children, because little ones do get themselves worked up about certain things and just letting them talk through and just let
just listening to what they have to say first of all, before giving advice. I think we still need to give advice to the children. But even my staff, the team I work with, I find myself coaching them more now that I’ve been coached. So following Sue’s example really. So instead of me offering the solution all the time, I would be saying things like, how could you improve that? you know,
giving feedback, what could you do next time to make that better or you know it’s not it’s sort of leading maybe leading questions but also getting them to think and solve the problem themselves just like Sue does for us. So it does work it’s it’s translated through all the different levels and all the different you know aspects that we work with so parents, children and adults.
Charlie Warshawski (30:35.385)
Yeah. And this is really important, isn’t it? The idea that you can observe and as teachers, you know very well how to observe something and then replicate it. So you can observe a coaching skill and then use it. I don’t know if it’s good news or bad news, but this is how people become coaches, by the way, right? They become coaches, they like it, they find, look, I’m using a bit of coaching in my conversations. And then at some point they say, I think I should probably go and train to be a coach.
That’s what happened to Sue. So I’m just giving you a little warning, you know, for when you get like a coaching qualification shaped hole in your diary one year. You never know. You never know. I have another leading question, which is that because you only see Sue three or four times a year, do you have like in your head periodically when you hit a bit of a thorny moment, do you have what would Sue ask me now type of narrative going on? Does that happen?
Rachel And Emma (31:32.175)
Yeah, it absolutely does happen. But also Sue’s remarkable in that we can email her, you know, and she gets back to us. She’s always there for us. So that’s that’s a little bit of reassurance and comfort that if there is something that we’re really struggling with, like for myself, if I can’t go to my SLT with it, which is not very often, but if I can’t go, then I know that I can speak to Sue or drop her a line and and she will come back to me, which that’s that’s a lovely part of it.
Rachel And Emma (32:02.21)
being the coach.
I was just going to say that I think I’m sort of the same, except I think I’m a bit more like what you said. I would maybe think, I’ve talked about this with Sue, I know I can do it. And I remember myself being in my session and then coming out and the sort of the feeling of weightlessness I had on my shoulders that I can deal with this and I can tackle it head on.
Yeah, a little sort of a Sue shaped person sitting on my shoulder whispering in my ear saying, we’ve done this in a session, you can do it. I think that’s definitely what I envisage.
Charlie Warshawski (32:37.423)
I think Sue’s obviously missing a marketing trick with her little dolls that she, maybe she should just have on with a little picture of her. She should leave them on your desk and then you could just talk to her.
Rachel And Emma (32:46.35)
That would be brilliant.
Charlie Warshawski (32:49.327)
It’s a bit black mirror, isn’t it? you never know. It might work. Goodness, So, well, I mean, this is joyful and wonderful. I sometimes, when I look around and I see, for example, a coach has received a lovely testimonial from their client and they’re very proud of it and they shove it up on their website or LinkedIn. And it’s almost always very genuine and it’s very heartfelt and it describes it.
It still is two dimensional, isn’t it? It’s still a few sentences written down. Whereas what you’re doing here today, you’re talking from the heart and you’re talking with a real openness. And there’s a clear, there’s a real passion and enthusiasm that this coaching is making a really big difference. So let’s start bringing this to a close. I’m really interested in, know, Emma, said, I think everyone should have some coaching. Everyone can benefit from coaching. To be clear, right, this coaching is not…
necessarily for people with problems, would be medial. It’s for people, you know, you’re in a senior leadership team, in a job, doing a good job. And we often see this is that people who are performing really well, get a benefit from coaching. so how, how do you think we can help, how we can help explain to coaches that this is not just problem solving, that this is maybe building on your positives? That was a terrible question, by the way.
You know, sometimes, sometimes coaching questions just ramble a bit, sorry, but you get what I’m asking. Keeping coaching in the positive rather than feeling it’s a negative.
Rachel And Emma (34:21.452)
Yeah, I think when you delve into the issue or the concern or the scenario, you think about why it affects you, how it affects you. It’s the whole package really. The whole situation you delve into every aspect of the problem. So yes, it does come round positive, but think it also soothes very good at reassurance that yes,
what you’ve what you’re thinking is okay, you know, that’s normal. And she’s very, she’s just very comforting in it. So you do come around to okay, I can do this. And she makes you feel, as you said earlier, But she you do say, I’m doing a good job here. You know, I shouldn’t doubt myself. And she drills up your self esteem. And to be honest, I don’t really know how she does that. And unless she’s just a miraculous person, because she doesn’t speak that much. But you do come
across, you she does whatever she does and hire her presence. You just come out going, wow, I can do this. I’m doing a good job. I’m okay. You know, and it is the positives, I think. And it’s the reassurance, I think, is for for us for coaches as well. I’ve never once thought of it being a negative thing to have the coaching. I’ve always seen it very much as I’m valued as a staff member.
My head to the head teacher wants to, you know, like I’ve said, build up our skills, make us better leaders. And I’ve always sort of taken the sessions as positive in terms of building up my own skills and dealing with challenges that I might face on a day-to-day basis with a variety of different scenarios. And, you know, yes, I feel that it’s important that
more coaching happens in schools because it is something that is so important for staff. are given these positions of being senior leaders and we’re expected to know how to be a senior leader without really knowing how to do that and to put ourselves in difficult positions and out of our comfort zone. So, you know, these sessions have been really valuable in helping us.
Rachel And Emma (36:42.828)
be able to do our jobs more effectively. And so for that, I’m very grateful for the sessions. Absolutely. Developing, it’s just developing our role, developing, you know, not only our personalities, but our professionalism. And yeah, I’m very grateful for them. And I think our head teacher is very open minded that she’s she’s doing this for us. So it’s a very it’s a very worthwhile experience.
Charlie Warshawski (37:08.739)
Yeah, I agree. And I think that the open-mindedness of your head is something really worth mentioning, because, know, I alluded to this a bit before that in some organizations, when coaching is, is organized in like that triangulated way with a sponsor, encouraging someone to be coached, whether positive or not, often that they want to be kept in the loop, and they want feedback, and they want to know what’s going on. And we always, we always push back, we always say, you know, it’s, is
Although an organization might fund coaching, actually the relationship is between coach and coachee. So we encourage the sponsor to stay at arm’s length. Some understand that, some not so much. But from what Sue’s told me and from what I’m imagining is that your head is just, it’s an invitation for you and she keeps out of it. She doesn’t tell you what to talk about in coaching. She doesn’t ask what’s happened. It’s just a private thing. Is that right?
And I know it’s important to me because we feel, you know, we’re on that professional side, but is that important to you that you know it’s your own space rather than thinking, you know, the head knows about this stuff?
Rachel And Emma (38:20.194)
Yeah, definitely, because I don’t think we would be as open and honest about certain situations if Sue was to go back and feed back on what we said. I think it’s important that that space remains confidential so that you can bring anything to the conversation. I also don’t think it would work really, to be honest. If it was fed back, it has to be confidential because people would be guarded if it was, you know, if they did think.
you know, they wouldn’t get the solutions, they wouldn’t delve deep into the, you know, everything that happens in the session. It wouldn’t be worthwhile to them if it did go back. So I’m glad it is confidential because it really, it really is effective when you feel that trust with your coach. Yeah. And the honesty comes out automatically. It’s not, it’s not pulled out of you. It just comes out. So yeah.
Charlie Warshawski (39:12.825)
Yes, yeah, yeah. That’s a really good way to say it. And I think, I mean, it does take an experienced coach to navigate that. I think you’re lucky in your school that your head is very, very open to it and very, please just, you know, here’s your coaching. Whereas in some organizations, maybe if it was a new coach and the leader says, you know, keep me in the loop, let me know what’s going on. I mean, I’m sure I did it when I first started, you you naively, you know, send the odd email and share the odd comment. And it’s…
It shouldn’t be like that. It has to be protected time, doesn’t it? Goodness. Well, I’m so appreciative and I’m sure that lots and lots of coaches will be really appreciative of everything that you’ve shared today. So we’ll start bringing it to a close. Let’s imagine as a final word, what might you like to say to, let’s imagine there’s going to be a thousand or a couple of thousand sues out. There are no other series by the way, but.
Rachel And Emma (40:06.557)
I’m gonna go.
Charlie Warshawski (40:06.827)
Should we call them aspiring Sue’s out there trying to do that type of work? What would you like to say to other fellow coaches, particularly those who are doing this important work, know, coaching in the education sector, coaching and health coaching and charities? You know, what would you like to say as a final word of encouragement to our listeners? Rachel, what would you like to say?
Rachel And Emma (40:26.176)
I would say embrace your coaching sessions, make the most of them. You have that dedicated time, that hour session or however long the session, purely just to talk about you and your professional development or your personal life, whatever it might be. So just to embrace the sessions and be as honest and self-critical as possible, because at the end of the session, you will walk out feeling lighter.
you will have the less weight of the world on your shoulders and you will feel so much more, as I use the word, empowered to tackle your job and be a better version of yourself.
Charlie Warshawski (41:05.775)
And I’m sure Sue are in the room right now. She would notice your energy came up and your enthusiasm came up. It was like a year two assembly, wasn’t it? was like, we’re ready to present this bag.
Rachel And Emma (41:10.35)
Thank you.
Rachel And Emma (41:14.766)
She hasn’t mentioned that before. She has said to me, wow, you had a really good session. you know, she can, she, she has that way with, you know, being able to get, you know, the best out of you to be able to, like I said, you know, be who you want to be.
Charlie Warshawski (41:32.313)
What a wonderful thing. Thank you so much for sharing. And Emma, what about you? What would you say to the coaches and coachees out there?
Rachel And Emma (41:39.248)
Just take it with two hands, know, embrace it. It’s not at all a negative thing. It’s not showing that you are not good at your job. It is a tool to be used to improve you, to make you better, a better person, better professional. It’s there to…
basically remind you that you can solve the problems. You have the power to take control and to own all these things and change your outlook and make the profession a better place and remind you that you’re also doing a good job. You’re doing a very good job and just enjoy the moment because it’s very, it’s
It goes quick. We have an hour session in our sessions and it goes very quickly. But it’s very worthwhile. And I would definitely suggest people go for it.
Charlie Warshawski (42:47.759)
Thank you so much. Well, if Sue isn’t inundated with calls after this, don’t know what will happen. We’ll have to put her details. Thank you so much to both of you for sharing all of this. And to fellow coaches, think about what you’ve heard. mean, this has been so rich and so fascinating. to have people who have been coached, and not just any people, but people who are running busy primary schools. They run in a five-form entry school, a big, busy school, important work. We think about.
how many people will be impacted by the coaching that Rachel and Emma are seeing. That’s really, really significant. I’m not saying we should do this all the time, interview our coaches on public podcast platform, but I definitely think that there is space, isn’t there, to get the coachee’s voice out there a bit more, whether you ask a fellow coach to talk to them or, you know, this is, I think, about how quite useful an evaluation form is, but how incredibly useful.
This 40 minutes has been for the two of you, for me, for Sue, but for you all as coaches, I think it’s a great thing to hear. So Rachel and Emma, thank you so much. I’m really, really appreciative of you. Your first ever podcast, how did it feel? Is it all right?
Rachel And Emma (44:00.847)
Fantastic. Thank you for the opportunity. Thank you for having us.
Charlie Warshawski (44:03.407)
Honestly, it’s a real pleasure. I’m really delighted. And fellow coaches, I don’t know if you’re listening to this on a Friday afternoon or a wet Monday morning or anywhere else, but please enjoy whatever coaching you’ve come up with, whatever you’re doing in the rest of your coaching day and your coaching week. See you next time for our next session. Love your coaching podcast. Have a good day. Happy coaching.
Charlie Warshawski (44:33.292)
you did so well.
About Charlie:
I’m Charlie Warshawski, a UK based coach, coach trainer and supervisor. Coaching has been my thing since 2007 and I’ve been keen to start this podcast, to help fellow coaches navigate the difficulties of running a coaching business or practice. Most of my coaching takes place in education and I love coaching school leaders. And most of the supervision I do is with coaches who are starting their coaching practice.
Since 2019 I’ve been supporting new and experienced coaches with resources to help them grow their business – our free The Sustainable Coach programme is available to all coaches, and over 200 coaches have accessed these resources.
Away from coaching, four children, three pets, a poor table tennis and cycling schedule and a thirst for language learning all keep me busy.
Love Your Coaching Resources:
- Visit our website
- Learn more about our courses and coaching qualifications
- Contacts: charlie@loveyourcoaching.com | hello@loveyourcoaching.com| 01306 264026 | 0774 8515189
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